DP-41... Well, I looked, and I am yet to see evidence for that name being more than Glantz's own asspull.Appleknocker27 wrote:DP-41 was the strategic deployment plan and it was stated as defensive, specifically stated as an answering strike to a German invasion.Omeganian wrote:Defensive? Three of the plan's variants (summer 1940 to spring 1941) contain nothing about enemy plans and admit nothing is known about them. Up until May 1941, the Soviet command didn't even bother with the possibility the Germans might disrupt the assembly of the forces on the border. What evidence do you have this plan was defensive? Pure attack through and through.Appleknocker27 wrote:"Said Plan" was an answering strike based on a German first strike. That was the defensive plan being prepared, the Germans struck before the Soviets were ready and the Red Army still tried to execute the plan because there were no other plans prepared.Omeganian wrote:ljadw wrote:The soviet forces were not deployed offensively ;most were deployed in the Russian hinterland, far away from the border.
The forces were merely not concentrated yet. Two weeks before the Germans attacked, how many of their tank divisions were at the border?
Your point?Appleknocker27 wrote:MP-41 was the mobilization plan to support it, the timeline of which went into 1942.
Ah, again the attempts to present covering plans as defense plans. Is that supposed to demonstrate anything beyond an attempt to cheat?Appleknocker27 wrote:The specific operational orders as published in May 1941 were stated as defensive, as presented by Glantz in Stumbling Colossus, Appendix B, quoted verbatim from Soviet archival sources.
A strange argument, considering your pathological refusal to provide your own numbers.Your links are very general, lack detail and aren't verified.Well, there are the figures of the Statistical Compendium, then there is the 10th Tank Division, which according to the report took 147 BT tanks out of the 181 it had, there is the 1st Tank Division (Finnish border), which was forced to leave behind 20 tanks once it went to war... Where are your sources?Appleknocker27 wrote:Quote the source then, in its original context."All the reports - both of the equipment statistics and the percentages of the tanks that were actually driven out of the bases - are consistently in the 80-90% range, not 50."
http://www.teatrskazka.com/Raznoe/BiChS ... _2_02.html
http://bdsa.ru/avgust-1941-arkhiv/290-b ... sta-1941-g
http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/golushko/01.html
What about these BT tanks? Only the 28th division had them, 236 total. It moved toward the border with 210 of them. That's nearly 90%, sounds very good. Reports claim two combat losses per broken down tank. Thanks for proving my point.Appleknocker27 wrote:You also cherry picked the unit you used as an example. How about the BT tanks of the 12th Mechanized Corps? I can cherry pick also.
https://web.archive.org/web/20120518083 ... /index.htm
http://bdsa.ru/tankovye-divizii/2962-28
http://rkkawwii.ru/division/28tdf1
There were a number of smaller skirmishes. Certainly no less than what the tanks to the west saw saw before 1941 (And, with the production numbers, what percentage of these tanks participated in the conflict?).These were the tanks which fought actual battles against Japan throughout the 30s. And then they spent six years mothballed. And then we have the tanks which served Spain and Finland until the 60s...Apples to oranges.... Those were BT tanks, but not the same tanks from the Western Military districts from 1940-41 that were worn out and required major maintenance reset." And considering these very BT tanks, with the same or even greater spare part problems, four+ years later drove 800 km against the Japanese without breaking down..."In the 30's? Do you mean 1939 at Khalkhin Gol only?
And for the tanks in the west in 1941, these years didn't exist at all. Are you saying the tanks on the Far East have regenerated in the meantime?They sat with minimal use for several years,
How much of that could they have with all they sent away in 1941 and the tanks being out of production for years?had trained crews, maintenance teams and had the luxury of all the spare parts being sent East since the war in the west was over and few BT tanks were in use there anyway. Its still apples to oranges.
Strawman....denied. You haven't proven that the Soviets intended or even planned to concentrate let alone whether or not that they were even capable. Your arguments remain in the realm of wishful thinking and fantasy. Sovietophile stuff to be sure.I know that the Soviet forces were scheduled to concentrate in early July. You presume that the Soviet ability in 1941 to stage and concentrate their forces was unknown to the Soviet high command??? seriously?You presume that the Soviet ability in 1941 to stage and concentrate their (still not mobilized) forces was the same as the Germans??? seriously?"The forces were merely not concentrated yet. Two weeks before the Germans attacked, how many of their tank divisions were at the border?"
Do you know what Plan Otto was and how much the Germans increased their rail capacity to the border in order to effect their offensive concentration plan?
The transfer of the forces was planned with the calculation of completing the deployment in the regions given by the operative plans from June 1st to July 10th.
http://militera.lib.ru/h/1941/02.html