Was the Soviet Union preparing to attack Germany?

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Omeganian
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Re: Was the Soviet Union preparing to attack Germany?

#1606

Post by Omeganian » 17 Apr 2017, 09:40

ljadw wrote:There is no proof of any intention from the Soviet Leadership to attack Germany;
What would you consider proof?
ljadw wrote:and all what we know indicates that such an attack was materially impossible :shortage of fuel,
The Germans advancing on the half destroyed Soviet stocks makes the statement doubtful.
ljadw wrote:ammunition
Mark Solonin provides a simple, sourced table of payloads per gun.

Image

Mind describing the horrendous defeats and retreats caused by the considerably more severe ammo shortage in 1943?
ljadw wrote:untrained troops,
The German army was at least half green recruits itself.
ljadw wrote:a peace army, ........
It was wartime sized, so what made it "peace army"?

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Attrition
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Re: Was the Soviet Union preparing to attack Germany?

#1607

Post by Attrition » 17 Apr 2017, 09:47

ljadw wrote:There is no proof of any intention from the Soviet Leadership to attack Germany;and all what we know indicates that such an attack was materially impossible :shortage of fuel, ammunition, untrained troops, a peace army, ........
The case for a German forestalling invasion is worse than unconvincing, it's got boring too.


Art
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Re: Was the Soviet Union preparing to attack Germany?

#1608

Post by Art » 17 Apr 2017, 13:35

Omeganian wrote: It was wartime sized, so what made it "peace army"?
The Soviet army on 21 June 1941 was on peace-time establishment and had about 40% of the personnel strength of 1943-45. It was actually below even a peace-time authorized strength. Naturally mobilization could change it all in a couple of weeks and it did in reality.
Mark Solonin provides a simple, sourced table of payloads per gun.

Ammunition stocks in June 1941 were indeed mostly adequate, no reasons to see any critical shortage here.

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Re: Was the Soviet Union preparing to attack Germany?

#1609

Post by michael mills » 17 Apr 2017, 13:54

The case for a German forestalling invasion is worse than unconvincing, it's got boring too.
Attrition,

You are misrepresenting the real issue here, which is whether Stalin was planning to attack Germany at some time of his own choosing, ie whether his planning was independent of German actions. It is not restricted to the issue of whether Stalin was planning an attack specifically in 1941.

Much verbiage has been uttered to the effect that as of 22 June 1941 the Red Army was not strong enough to launch a first strike against the German forces massing in occupied Poland with any realistic chance of success. But that is not the essential point. There is a lot of evidence that Stalin was building up the Red Army with the aim of making it capable fighting a successful war with Germany by 1942.

The essential issue is what Stalin intended to do with the Red Army in 1942, once the program of upgrading and re-equipping it had been completed. Did he intend to just sit back and wait for a German invasion, confident that the Red Army was now strong enough to repulse it? Or did he intend to attack first, to secure the advantage that accrues to the side that strikes first against an opponent that is not superior in strength?

The fact is that we do not have enough evidence to decide one way or the other with any degree of certainty. That is why historians are still debating the issue.

But there are indications that Stalin changed his plans once it became obvious that Germany was preparing to attack in 1941, ie before the planned strengthening of the Red Army had been completed, and that he was considering launching a first strike to pre-empt the German invasion. The Timoshenko-Zhukov pre-emptive strike plan is a clear indication of such thinking; the extant rough draft of the plan clearly states that its aim was to attack the German forces in the midst of their observed deployment and thereby catch them off balance, increasing the chances of success.

What is not known for sure is whether Stalin decided to implement the T-Z plan, and whether the actions of the Red Army in the days leading up to the German invasion were part of such implementation. Some of those actions do seem to resemble preliminary moves prescribed in the T-Z plan.

However, there are also indications that at the last minute Stalin had realised that it was too late to try to pre-empt the imminent German attack, and decided to pull back and try to adopt a defensive posture. One such indication is the Soviet withdrawal from Lithuania which began on 21 June, ie before the start of the German invasion, and which triggered an uprising by ethnic Lithuanian units in the Red Army.

All we can be reasonably certain of is that, after the fall of France in 1940, Stalin calculated that sooner or later there would be an armed conflict with Germany, and his only realistic options were either to initiate that conflict himself at a time of his choosing, when the Red Army had become strong enough to be confident of success, or leave the initiative to Hitler and simply wait for Germany to launch a first strike, which he thought it could not do while it was still bogged down in a stalemated war with Britain.

antfreire
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Re: Was the Soviet Union preparing to attack Germany?

#1610

Post by antfreire » 17 Apr 2017, 16:38

The answer is yes.
In 1940 the world (including Hitler himself) was convinced that the campaign in the West would last months and great losses in men and materiel. The Red Dictator counted on those circumstances to gain the time that the Russian army needed to prepare an invasion of Germany that would leave him as the owner of Continental Europe. Unfortunately for Stalin that did not happen and in just six weeks he was left as the next sheep to be devoured by the Nazi wolf. That forced him to change tactics and try to appease and delay the attack that he knew would eventually come.

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Attrition
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Re: Was the Soviet Union preparing to attack Germany?

#1611

Post by Attrition » 17 Apr 2017, 19:19

I'm not misrepresenting anything, it seems fairly well-established that Stalin (like Frankie) had begun to arm for war, rather than maintain for peace but that he had no intention of starting one. It's the hair-splitting over the two questions that is the second most most boring thing, the first is that people still want to treat the Soviet regime as qualitatively different to any of the other gangsters.

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Re: Was the Soviet Union preparing to attack Germany?

#1612

Post by ljadw » 17 Apr 2017, 19:33

Omeganian wrote:
ljadw wrote:There is no proof of any intention from the Soviet Leadership to attack Germany;
What would you consider proof?
ljadw wrote:and all what we know indicates that such an attack was materially impossible :shortage of fuel,
The Germans advancing on the half destroyed Soviet stocks makes the statement doubtful.
ljadw wrote:ammunition
Mark Solonin provides a simple, sourced table of payloads per gun.

Image

Mind describing the horrendous defeats and retreats caused by the considerably more severe ammo shortage in 1943?
ljadw wrote:untrained troops,
The German army was at least half green recruits itself.
ljadw wrote:a peace army, ........
It was wartime sized, so what made it "peace army"?
1 ) A written order from Stalin to attack Germany on day X

2 ) A table of payloads by gun is no proof that on 22 june there was enough ammunition available for the units west of the DD line to start a big offensive of several weeks that would lead the Red Army to Berlin.

It was the same for the fuel, the fueling stations and fixed storage facilities had a capacity of 653000 cm and there were 2000 railroad tank cars .90 % of the stations were located in the border districts but that does not mean that 590000 cm was located in the border districts ;what we know is that 171000 cm was lost in the first month of the war ,thus the amount of fuel in the border districts should not be more than 200000 cm, not enough for an offensive of several months .

3 ) The manpower strength of the Red Army was 5.7 million ,of which only 2.7 million were located in European Russia,most of them far away from the border . This was a peacetime strength of a peace army of a country at peace .Germany OTOH was at war with a war army at war strength .

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Re: Was the Soviet Union preparing to attack Germany?

#1613

Post by ljadw » 17 Apr 2017, 19:42

michael mills wrote:
The case for a German forestalling invasion is worse than unconvincing, it's got boring too.
Attrition,



Much verbiage has been uttered to the effect that as of 22 June 1941 the Red Army was not strong enough to launch a first strike against the German forces massing in occupied Poland with any realistic chance of success. But that is not the essential point. There is a lot of evidence that Stalin was building up the Red Army with the aim of making it capable fighting a successful war with Germany by 1942.

The essential issue is what Stalin intended to do with the Red Army in 1942, once the program of upgrading and re-equipping it had been completed. Did he intend to just sit back and wait for a German invasion, confident that the Red Army was now strong enough to repulse it? Or did he intend to attack first, to secure the advantage that accrues to the side that strikes first against an opponent that is not superior in strength?

The fact is that we do not have enough evidence to decide one way or the other with any degree of certainty. That is why historians are still debating the issue.

But there are indications that Stalin changed his plans once it became obvious that Germany was preparing to attack in 1941, ie before the planned strengthening of the Red Army had been completed, and that he was considering launching a first strike to pre-empt the German invasion.

.
As it was never obvious that Germany was preparing to attack in 1941, it is wrong that Stalin was considering a first strike . Stalin justifiedly refused to believe the ridiculous claims from Sorge and the other spies .

No one knew what Stalin planned to do in 1942,even not Stalin,because Stalin could not foresee the future . The reasonable assumption was that,as long there was a war with Britain, Hitler would not attack AND also that peace with Britain would not result in a German attack .

Omeganian
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Re: Was the Soviet Union preparing to attack Germany?

#1614

Post by Omeganian » 17 Apr 2017, 20:22

ljadw wrote:1 ) A written order from Stalin to attack Germany on day X
Considering that a) such a document takes 5 seconds to burn and b) documents were being incinerated by the ton throughout the Soviet times, you are demanding a proof that has no way of existing.
ljadw wrote:2 ) A table of payloads by gun is no proof that on 22 june there was enough ammunition available for the units west of the DD line to start a big offensive of several weeks that would lead the Red Army to Berlin.
Improper execution of orders to supply the forces might be relevant to the question of success of operations, but for plans, it is quite irrelevant.
ljadw wrote:It was the same for the fuel, the fueling stations and fixed storage facilities had a capacity of 653000 cm and there were 2000 railroad tank cars .90 % of the stations were located in the border districts but that does not mean that 590000 cm was located in the border districts ;what we know is that 171000 cm was lost in the first month of the war ,thus the amount of fuel in the border districts should not be more than 200000 cm, not enough for an offensive of several months .
Actually, both Belarus and Kiev districts exceeded that figure. Separately. 264 thousand tons in the former, 208 in the latter.
ljadw wrote:3 ) The manpower strength of the Red Army was 5.7 million ,of which only 2.7 million were located in European Russia,most of them far away from the border . This was a peacetime strength of a peace army of a country at peace .Germany OTOH was at war with a war army at war strength .
Over three percent of the population. Peacetime army is one percent.

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Re: Was the Soviet Union preparing to attack Germany?

#1615

Post by Art » 17 Apr 2017, 21:24

ljadw wrote: 3 ) The manpower strength of the Red Army was 5.7 million
4.2 million in the Army

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Re: Was the Soviet Union preparing to attack Germany?

#1616

Post by Art » 17 Apr 2017, 21:32

Omeganian wrote:Peacetime army is one percent.
1) this rule is not based on any sound basis
2) the French Army in 1914 before mobilization contained well over 1% of the French population, just to give an example.
3) "peacetime" here is a synonym of unmobilized establishment.

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Attrition
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Re: Was the Soviet Union preparing to attack Germany?

#1617

Post by Attrition » 18 Apr 2017, 00:02

ljadw wrote:
michael mills wrote:
The case for a German forestalling invasion is worse than unconvincing, it's got boring too.
Attrition,



Much verbiage has been uttered to the effect that as of 22 June 1941 the Red Army was not strong enough to launch a first strike against the German forces massing in occupied Poland with any realistic chance of success. But that is not the essential point. There is a lot of evidence that Stalin was building up the Red Army with the aim of making it capable fighting a successful war with Germany by 1942.

The essential issue is what Stalin intended to do with the Red Army in 1942, once the program of upgrading and re-equipping it had been completed. Did he intend to just sit back and wait for a German invasion, confident that the Red Army was now strong enough to repulse it? Or did he intend to attack first, to secure the advantage that accrues to the side that strikes first against an opponent that is not superior in strength?

The fact is that we do not have enough evidence to decide one way or the other with any degree of certainty. That is why historians are still debating the issue.

But there are indications that Stalin changed his plans once it became obvious that Germany was preparing to attack in 1941, ie before the planned strengthening of the Red Army had been completed, and that he was considering launching a first strike to pre-empt the German invasion.

.
As it was never obvious that Germany was preparing to attack in 1941, it is wrong that Stalin was considering a first strike . Stalin justifiedly refused to believe the ridiculous claims from Sorge and the other spies .

No one knew what Stalin planned to do in 1942,even not Stalin,because Stalin could not foresee the future . The reasonable assumption was that,as long there was a war with Britain, Hitler would not attack AND also that peace with Britain would not result in a German attack .
Stalin and Frankie were waiting on events and preparing for war from 1938, then somewhat aghast at the speed that the western slave empires collapsed in 1940. Both were keeping their options open and whether that meant a willingness to start a war with Germany or not is an unanswerable question. That the boss classes of both peripheral slave empires were intent on increasing the means to make war isn't.

Omeganian
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Re: Was the Soviet Union preparing to attack Germany?

#1618

Post by Omeganian » 18 Apr 2017, 04:29

Art wrote:
Omeganian wrote:Peacetime army is one percent.
1) this rule is not based on any sound basis
2) the French Army in 1914 before mobilization contained well over 1% of the French population, just to give an example.
3) "peacetime" here is a synonym of unmobilized establishment.
What was "unmobilized" about it?

ljadw
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Re: Was the Soviet Union preparing to attack Germany?

#1619

Post by ljadw » 18 Apr 2017, 14:44

Omeganian wrote:
ljadw wrote:1 ) A written order from Stalin to attack Germany on day X
Considering that a) such a document takes 5 seconds to burn and b) documents were being incinerated by the ton throughout the Soviet times, you are demanding a proof that has no way of existing.
ljadw wrote:2 ) A table of payloads by gun is no proof that on 22 june there was enough ammunition available for the units west of the DD line to start a big offensive of several weeks that would lead the Red Army to Berlin.
Improper execution of orders to supply the forces might be relevant to the question of success of operations, but for plans, it is quite irrelevant.
ljadw wrote:It was the same for the fuel, the fueling stations and fixed storage facilities had a capacity of 653000 cm and there were 2000 railroad tank cars .90 % of the stations were located in the border districts but that does not mean that 590000 cm was located in the border districts ;what we know is that 171000 cm was lost in the first month of the war ,thus the amount of fuel in the border districts should not be more than 200000 cm, not enough for an offensive of several months .
Actually, both Belarus and Kiev districts exceeded that figure. Separately. 264 thousand tons in the former, 208 in the latter.
ljadw wrote:3 ) The manpower strength of the Red Army was 5.7 million ,of which only 2.7 million were located in European Russia,most of them far away from the border . This was a peacetime strength of a peace army of a country at peace .Germany OTOH was at war with a war army at war strength .
Over three percent of the population. Peacetime army is one percent.
Fuel in Kiev/Minsk is not fuel available for a big offensive .

Hitler was not scared about a Soviet offensive, there were no indications about it and til the last moment, Stalin was not scared about a German attack , no indications about a German attack . If Stalin wanted to attack Germany, he could have done it in 1940 with much more chances of success,he did not do it in 1940, why would he do it in 1941 or later ?

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Re: Was the Soviet Union preparing to attack Germany?

#1620

Post by Art » 18 Apr 2017, 18:44

Omeganian wrote: What was "unmobilized" about it?
Practically everything. Most importantly by June 1941 almost all enlisted men were regulars of young classes inducted to service in 1939-40 and serving a normal 2-year term. Those reservists called up during the mobilization of 1939 were almost all discharged by the end of 1940. No "mobilized" personnel remained.

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