Battle of Targul Frumos

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Lehr Division
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Battle of Targul Frumos

Post by Lehr Division » 26 Jul 2002 00:49

anybody know any site about it or info would be helpful

Ovidius
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Re: Battle of Targul Frumos

Post by Ovidius » 26 Jul 2002 02:03

Lehr Division wrote:anybody know any site about it or info would be helpful
http://www.wwii.home.ro/fr1.htm(main page)

http://www.wwii.home.ro/last.htm(defensive battle on Romanian territory)

(It's Victor's site :D )

~Ovidius

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Lehr Division
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RE

Post by Lehr Division » 26 Jul 2002 21:45

Lovely site ,i found some quite interesting articles ,but nothing about Targul Frumos :|

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Victor
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Post by Victor » 26 Jul 2002 22:15

At the end of May 1944, the Soviets launched an attack on Targu-Frumos (40 km west of Iasi), in the sector of the Romanian 4th Infantry Division and of the Guard Division. It was repulsed with difficulty with the help of the German "Grossdeutschland" Division and 24th Armoured Division and of the Romanian 18th Mountain Division. The defensive line was stabilized and, until 19 August, the situation on the Moldavian front was calm.

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Lehr Division
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Post by Lehr Division » 28 Jul 2002 02:07

Romanian 18th Mountain Division
24th Armoured Division

are you sure those units were in the battle cause the source i have only talks about Grossdeutschland?

too bad not a lot of things about it, its one of The greatest defensive battle during the whole war

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Wolfkin
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Post by Wolfkin » 28 Jul 2002 02:37

Yo dude!

I don't know of any sites, but I will do a search for ya. :)

There are some cheap books that cover this battle a bit. Knight's Of The Black Cross, Panzer A Revolution In Warfare and German Tanks Of World War Two. Then, of course there are the more expensive divisional histories. :)

I am pretty sure there must be something online. I'll be looking and let y'all know. :)

Cheers dude,

Wolfkin

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Wolfkin
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Post by Wolfkin » 28 Jul 2002 07:03

Yo, Lehr Division dude!

I found a little bit...

Go to this site:

http://members.shaw.ca/grossdeutschland/

Click on GD in 1944

It has a little bit, not too much though. Some good maps! I am looking for more, will let y'all know!!!

Cheers dude,

Wolfkin

P.S. I believe that site is done by a fellow Calgarian!!!

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Victor
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Post by Victor » 28 Jul 2002 10:03

Lehr Division wrote:Romanian 18th Mountain Division
24th Armoured Division

are you sure those units were in the battle cause the source i have only talks about Grossdeutschland?

too bad not a lot of things about it, its one of The greatest defensive battle during the whole war
This is a Romanian source. Many times the Romanian participation in some battles is overlooked by many foreign sorces, mainly because of the lack of data.

Also a big contribution to the success of the Axis forces had the Romanian 1st Air Corps, especialy the 5th Bomber Group and 8th Assault Group, as von Manteuffel himself recognized in a note he sent to the Romanian General Staff.

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Al Carter
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Post by Al Carter » 28 Jul 2002 20:55

Lehr,

Monday when I get to the office I will post a few pieces of information that I have on this battle. I to have been interested in this battle for sometime now. Information is hard to come by, and I have really only found two little tidbits. The History of PanzerKorps Grossdeautschland pt.3 has a section on this, but I do not have this book.

Al Carter

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Lehr Division
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! THANK YOU ALL !

Post by Lehr Division » 29 Jul 2002 01:28

THANK YOU!
wow thanks,never thougth i get this much replies
Hey Al you mind giving me your email so i can email you some of stuff i found and you can send me yours too? i got a WWII magazine that desricibe the battle.
And wolf thanks, that site ,i must say is probley 1 or 2 sites that i know that have some useful fact about the battle. :monkee: :mrgreen:

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Al Carter
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Targul Frumos

Post by Al Carter » 29 Jul 2002 15:02

Lehr-

Here is the information on Targul Frumos. This one I found on the Internet a long time ago, I cannot locate it anymore. The whole article is a wonderful read, and I did print it out. This is the portion that deals with Targul Frumos.

The Failures of Historiography: Forgotten Battles of the German-Soviet War (1941-1945) by David M. Glantz


The Battle of Targul-Frumos (2-4 May 1944)

According to German sources, foremost of which are studies by H. von Manteuffel, commander of Grossdeutschland panzer Grenadier Division, and F. von Senger und Etterlin, the battle was precipitated when large Soviet forces struck German positions north of Iassy in an attempt to seize the city and advance deep into Rumania (see map 14).30 The Germans identified the attacking force as 2d Tank Army and cooperating 27th Army. In three days of fighting, from 2-4 May, German LVII Panzer Corps (principally Grossdeutschland and 24th Panzer Division) and L Army Corps defeated the Soviet force and destroyed over 350 Soviet tanks.

Soviet sources are silent on the battle. Scattered references appear in divisional histories concerning combat in Rumania during this period, but only 2d Tank Army’s history makes direct reference to this particular battle. It notes, that in late March 1944, the tank army regrouped into 27th Army’s sector with the mission of “attacking in the direction of Fokuri and Podul-Iloaei. Subsequently, the army was to strike a blow toward the city of Iassy and secure it. “31 In its narrative of subsequent operations, the history relates that the tank army attacked with 27th Army’s 35th Rifle Corps, and, although 3d Tank Corps reached Targul-Frumos, it was thrown back by heavy German counterattacks. The account attributes the Soviet failure to a poor artillery preparation and German advance warning that the attack was to occur.

Historians are thus left with the question of whether the Soviet offensive was a major effort to penetrate into Rumania or simply a local assault to improve the Soviet operational posture and opportunities for a renewed offensive in the future. The Germans maintain it was the former. This author has argued that it was the latter and was also associated with deception planning for future operations in Belorussia (to fix the future presence of 2d Tank Army in Rumania, while it was shortly moved elsewhere).32 Only further release of Soviet archival materials will settle this long-standing debate.

Hope this helps.

Al Carter

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Al Carter
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Targul Frumos

Post by Al Carter » 29 Jul 2002 15:06

The second piece I have is from a scenario in the East Front pack.

At Targul Frumos, Panzergrenadier Division Grossdeutschland conducted one of the greatest combined arms defenses in the face of waves of Russian armor. So well-fought was this battle that in the 1980's NATO commanders would study it for clues to help them defeat a Soviet onslaught if it was ever to come. Yet, in 1944, General von Manteuffel's key to victory was not just the well chosen ground, well prepared positions or expert handling of his panzer reserves, it was the well trained and disciplined soldiers of Grossdeutschland. The division commander later wrote "In spite of the most careful preparations, the decisive factor in defense was the combat potential of the troops. It was this which allowed the defense to achieve the result it did: a huge fiasco for the Russians!" And what a fiasco it was; by the end of three-day battle, the GD division had destroyed over 350 Russian tanks and damaged over 200, at a loss of only 10 tanks!

This is all that I have on this battle, but I am very interested in it. If you would not mind sending the info you have it would be much appreciated. My email is [email protected]. Thanks.

Al Carter

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Lehr Division
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Re

Post by Lehr Division » 30 Jul 2002 07:08

i'll send it asap tomorrow, the first one piece i have seen it and it is still around if you want the address i'll find it for you, i think i got it bookmarked.The second piece if quite nice. can't send anything today ,really busy. :lol:

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Victor
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Post by Victor » 30 Jul 2002 14:26

Why not just post this information on the forum? I am sure there are more people around here interested in the subject.

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Wolfkin
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Post by Wolfkin » 30 Jul 2002 20:02

Hey y'all!

A guy on another forum mentioned that 3rd SS Panzer Division "Totenkopf" was also involved at Targul Frumos. I did not know this as the sources that I have read always only mentioned the Grossdeutschland Division.

Would anyone else be able to help in identifying the units involved? Thanks in advance!

Wolfkin

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