On this day in 1944...

Discussions on WW2 in Eastern Europe.
Davey Boy
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On this day in 1944...

Post by Davey Boy » 01 Aug 2002 15:58

...the "glorious" German army destroyed Warsaw and murdered half of its civilian population.


Image

Polish Home Army

Ovidius
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Post by Ovidius » 01 Aug 2002 16:24

Did they use the giant 800mm "Dora" gun on Warsaw after all? I thought this was just a rumor 8O

But anyway they did a pretty tough job with the two Sturmtigers, pity they didn't have more at that moment :mrgreen:

~Ovidius

Davey Boy
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Post by Davey Boy » 01 Aug 2002 16:58

Ovidius wrote:Did they use the giant 800mm "Dora" gun on Warsaw after all? I thought this was just a rumor 8O

But anyway they did a pretty tough job with the two Sturmtigers, pity they didn't have more at that moment :mrgreen:

~Ovidius

Yeah, whateva.

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Landser
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Warschau

Post by Landser » 01 Aug 2002 18:13

Yeah whateva.


<<< murdered half of its civilian population. >>>>


never heard that before,are we starting now a new rumour.

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Starinov
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Post by Starinov » 01 Aug 2002 19:10

Casualties on the Polish side are 18,000 dead and 25,000 wounded soldiers and officers. 15,000 soldiers and officers (including General TBor-Komorowski were taken into custody. Civilian losses were about 180,000 mostly murdered. The Germans lost 10,000 dead, 6,000 MIA and 9,000 wounded and some 300 AFVs

Straty powsta&#324;cze ocenia si&#281; na 18 tys. zabitych i zaginionych, 25 tys. rannych. Do niewoli dosta&#322;o si&#281; ok. 15 tys. &#380;o&#322;nierzy i oficerów, w tym mianowany naczelnym wodzem genera&#322; T. Komorowski (Bór). Straty ludno&#347;ci cywilnej wynios&#322;y ponad 180 tys. zabitych (g&#322;ównie pomordowanych). Niemcy stracili w walkach 10 tys. zabitych, 6 tys. zaginionych, 9 tys. rannych oraz ok. 300 pojazdów opancerzonych.
source: http://wiem.onet.pl/wiem/0066c1.html#s00

More than 90% of all Warsaw's building were destroyed during or after the Uprising according to the order given by Hitler.

Warsaw counted some 350 - 400,000 people at that time.

Ovidius
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Post by Ovidius » 01 Aug 2002 19:41

Did they use the "Dora" or not? :D

~Ovidius

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admfisher
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Capital cities

Post by admfisher » 01 Aug 2002 19:51

When Warsaw fell the Polish Army was dug in around and in the city. Thus they took a beating.

When Berlin was a Fortress city it was razed to the ground. The civilians once again were the big losers.

When Rome fell it was made an open city.

When Paris fell both times it was an open city.

The other European capitols that fell either fell without a fight or a smaller fight. But nowhere near the damage that Warsaw and Berlin took.

Now we have Warsaw and Berlin classed the same. If either goverment had been smart they would of done the same as in Rome and Paris.

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Marcus
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Post by Marcus » 01 Aug 2002 19:52

Ovidius wrote:But anyway they did a pretty tough job with the two Sturmtigers, pity they didn't have more at that moment
What is your point?

/Marcus

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Starinov
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Re: Capital cities

Post by Starinov » 01 Aug 2002 19:57

admfisher wrote: The other European capitols that fell either fell without a fight or a smaller fight. But nowhere near the damage that Warsaw and Berlin took.

Now we have Warsaw and Berlin classed the same. If either goverment had been smart they would of done the same as in Rome and Paris.
The difference between those two is that Berlin was not destroyed after the battle ended. The Russian did not start a systematic destruction of the city. The Germans did so. From a city which was detroyed at 25% it went to 90% after Hitler gave an order to destroy it completely.

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dmsdbo
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Post by dmsdbo » 01 Aug 2002 20:17

The units that sluaghtered the population of Warsaw were, among others, the savage SS Regiments Dirlewanger and RONA.

Ovidius
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Post by Ovidius » 01 Aug 2002 20:26

dmsdbo wrote:The units that sluaghtered the population of Warsaw were, among others, the savage SS Regiments Dirlewanger and RONA.
When someone needs to do a sleazy job and doesn't want to stain in blood the hands of his soldiers, sends in the criminals(Dr. Oskar Dirlewanger had been convicted, then taken out of prison and made a unit commander).

~Ovidius

PS The British and Soviet troops, when torture was needed, asked the Polish volunteers to do it :mrgreen:

Caldric
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Post by Caldric » 01 Aug 2002 20:27

Well as always people seem to forget Leningrad, Kursk, Stalingrad, Smolensk, Moscow, Tula, Rostov, Kiev, and add any of the others. No one had more cities leveled and turned into rubble then the USSR.

Ovidius
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Post by Ovidius » 01 Aug 2002 20:32

Caldric wrote:Well as always people seem to forget Leningrad, Kursk, Stalingrad, Smolensk, Moscow, Tula, Rostov, Kiev, and add any of the others. No one had more cities leveled and turned into rubble then the USSR.
1720 Soviet towns and cities and a few tens of thousands of villages, to be more precise.

~Ovidius

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Starinov
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Post by Starinov » 01 Aug 2002 20:36

Ovidius wrote:
dmsdbo wrote:The units that sluaghtered the population of Warsaw were, among others, the savage SS Regiments Dirlewanger and RONA.
When someone needs to do a sleazy job and doesn't want to stain in blood the hands of his soldiers, sends in the criminals(Dr. Oskar Dirlewanger had been convicted, then taken out of prison and made a unit commander).
It just proves the "quality", "chivalrous" behavior of the Wehrmacht.

Panzie will have a heart attack if he reads that. :D
Ovidius wrote: PS The British and Soviet troops, when torture was needed, asked the Polish volunteers to do it
Source, please, if there is any?

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Landser
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Starinov-Warschau

Post by Landser » 01 Aug 2002 20:43

Starinov wrote:Casualties on the Polish side are 18,000 dead and 25,000 wounded soldiers and officers. 15,000 soldiers and officers (including General TBor-Komorowski were taken into custody. Civilian losses were about 180,000 mostly murdered. The Germans lost 10,000 dead, 6,000 MIA and 9,000 wounded and some 300 AFVs

Straty powsta&#324;cze ocenia si&#281; na 18 tys. zabitych i zaginionych, 25 tys. rannych. Do niewoli dosta&#322;o si&#281; ok. 15 tys. &#380;o&#322;nierzy i oficerów, w tym mianowany naczelnym wodzem genera&#322; T. Komorowski (Bór). Straty ludno&#347;ci cywilnej wynios&#322;y ponad 180 tys. zabitych (g&#322;ównie pomordowanych). Niemcy stracili w walkach 10 tys. zabitych, 6 tys. zaginionych, 9 tys. rannych oraz ok. 300 pojazdów opancerzonych.
source: http://wiem.onet.pl/wiem/0066c1.html#s00

More than 90% of all Warsaw's building were destroyed during or after the Uprising according to the order given by Hitler.

Warsaw counted some 350 - 400,000 people at that time.

Sorry my polish is very rusty.But found this account thru Google search.Thats why I questioned the `Half' statement.Now if he said like one third or so it would have been closer to the trues.
1939-45
Warsaw rebellion
In view of the advance of the Soviet Army in the summer offensive 1944 to before the gates of Warsaw the nationalPolish homeland army (Armia Krajowa) kindled - supported from further groups of undergrounds like the communist People's Army (Armia Ludowa) - on 1 August 1944 a rebellion against the German Occupier. Those approximately 25,000 rebells under guidance of general count Tadeusz Komorowski (1895-1966) tried to free the Polish capital before the invasion of the Red Army with their own strength. After embitters led house fights in the roads of Warsaw brought the Polish federations in the first days many parts of the city under its control, before German Ss and police units under SS general Erich von der Bach-Zelewski (1899-1972) won gradually the upper hand. Support was received to Poland by the British Royal air Force, whith weapons and supplies by parachute over Warsaw. Deeply detuned the westallied pointed themselves over the refusal of the Soviets to render the rebellion help or to let the British land on Soviet airports. Josef W. Stalin did not have any interest in a victory of the nationalPolish homeland army, which would have established a probably anticommunist government still before the arrival of the Red Army in Warsaw.He rather prefared to install the communist "Lubliner committee" as a pupped government of Poland which would represent the interests of Moscow.
On 2 October 1944 the Polish Rebells in Warsaw had to surrender with their weapons. 16.000 Polish armed ones and 150,000 civilians as well as 2,000 Germans fell as victims.

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