On this day in 1944...

Discussions on WW2 in Eastern Europe.
Ovidius
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Post by Ovidius » 01 Aug 2002 20:44

Starinov wrote:
Ovidius wrote:
dmsdbo wrote:The units that sluaghtered the population of Warsaw were, among others, the savage SS Regiments Dirlewanger and RONA.
When someone needs to do a sleazy job and doesn't want to stain in blood the hands of his soldiers, sends in the criminals(Dr. Oskar Dirlewanger had been convicted, then taken out of prison and made a unit commander).
It just proves the "quality", "chivalrous" behavior of the Wehrmacht.

Panzie will have a heart attack if he reads that. :D
Dirlewanger Brigade and RONA were neither Wehrmacht nor Waffen-SS, but units created from convicted criminals for the mundane job of partisan fight.
Starinov wrote:
Ovidius wrote: PS The British and Soviet troops, when torture was needed, asked the Polish volunteers to do it
Source, please, if there is any?
Your best friend HETMAN former General Anders former DPWES, who else !? :mrgreen:

~Ovidius

PS He was proud of it :mrgreen:

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Landser
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Ovidious

Post by Landser » 01 Aug 2002 20:51

Ovidius wrote:
Caldric wrote:Well as always people seem to forget Leningrad, Kursk, Stalingrad, Smolensk, Moscow, Tula, Rostov, Kiev, and add any of the others. No one had more cities leveled and turned into rubble then the USSR.
1720 Soviet towns and cities and a few tens of thousands of villages, to be more precise.

~Ovidius


There was a "Torched Earth" order given from higher up,so what did more harm?

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Starinov
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Post by Starinov » 01 Aug 2002 21:06

Ovidius wrote:Dirlewanger Brigade and RONA were neither Wehrmacht nor Waffen-SS, but units created from convicted criminals for the mundane job of partisan fight.:
Dirlewanger Brigade was a Waffen-SS unit so part of Wehrmacht. Read some history books before posting sarcastic messages. Kamisnky' brigade was under the SS-FHA even if its members did not wear SS but Heer uniforms. Still Wehrmacht.
Ovidius wrote:
Starinov wrote:
Ovidius wrote: PS The British and Soviet troops, when torture was needed, asked the Polish volunteers to do it
Source, please, if there is any?
Your best friend HETMAN former General Anders former DPWES, who else !? :mrgreen:

~Ovidius

PS He was proud of it :mrgreen:
I don't care if he was proud of it or not, He is not my friend. I never saw him saying that but you did. You stated something. Now prove it. If you can not do it in that case just stop posting crap.

Ovidius
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Post by Ovidius » 01 Aug 2002 21:14

Starinov wrote:I don't care if he was proud of it or not, He is not my friend. I never saw him saying that but you did. You stated something. Now prove it. If you can not do it in that case just stop posting crap.
A hint: ask him directly :mrgreen:

~Ovidius

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Starinov
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Post by Starinov » 01 Aug 2002 21:16

Ovidius wrote:
Starinov wrote:I don't care if he was proud of it or not, He is not my friend. I never saw him saying that but you did. You stated something. Now prove it. If you can not do it in that case just stop posting crap.
A hint: ask him directly :mrgreen:

~Ovidius
I never saw him saying that but you did. You stated something. Now prove it. If you can not do it in that case just stop posting crap.

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Richard Murphy
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Post by Richard Murphy » 01 Aug 2002 21:52

Ovidius wrote:Did they use the "Dora" or not? :D

~Ovidius
Military Modelling carried an article on "Schwere Gustav" (The 80 cm railway gun) some years ago (Early 80's if memory serves.), but, as far as I can recall, the gun did not see action again after the fall of Sevastopol in the Summer of '42. "Dora" (And "Thor" etc) were tracked 60 cm "Mortars" (In actual fact, they weren't mortars at all.), and I recall reading that at least one unit was deployed at Warsaw, though cannot remember the source, sorry I can't give any more specifics!

BTW Has anyone written a history of "Gustav"?

Regards from the Park,

Rich

Ovidius
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Post by Ovidius » 02 Aug 2002 00:26

HETMAN former General Anders former DPWES wrote:I was recently told by an Aussie that in North Africa, during WWII, the British would often hand over to Polish troops any German POWs who wouldn't talk. And then they sang like birds.
HETMAN former General Anders former DPWES wrote:British Intelligence officers interrogating German prisoners found it very useful to have Polish sentries standing by during questioning. Even recalcitrant prisoners tended to modify their attitude on a hint that co-operation would result in their being placed in British, rather than Polish, custody.
Source: http://pub3.ezboard.com/fskalmanforumfr ... =1&stop=20

~Ovidius

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Starinov
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Post by Starinov » 02 Aug 2002 00:43

Ovidius wrote:
HETMAN former General Anders former DPWES wrote:British Intelligence officers interrogating German prisoners found it very useful to have Polish sentries standing by during questioning. Even recalcitrant prisoners tended to modify their attitude on a hint that co-operation would result in their being placed in British, rather than Polish, custody.
See? It was not so difficult, was it, Ovidius?. By the way, There is not motion about Poles torturing people. "Polish sentries standing by" does not mean torturing.

Ovidius
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Post by Ovidius » 02 Aug 2002 01:00

Starinov wrote:See? It was not so difficult, was it, Ovidius?. By the way, There is not motion about Poles torturing people. "Polish sentries standing by" does not mean torturing.
You've conveniently left aside the first quote, and even more conveniently you've not used the link to the old forum, where the problem was largely discussed. As usual.

BTW, ever asked why the French did not shoot themselves Oskar Dirlewanger, but gave him to Poles? Better have someone else around to do the dirty job :mrgreen:

~Ovidius

Davey Boy
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Re: On this day in 1944...

Post by Davey Boy » 02 Aug 2002 05:29

HETMAN wrote:...the "glorious" German army destroyed Warsaw and murdered half of its civilian population.


Image

Polish Home Army
I should've also added "mostly AFTER the battle had ended". "Glorious" indeed.

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Benoit Douville
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Post by Benoit Douville » 02 Aug 2002 06:00

Ovidius,

You seem to take pleasure to write Hetman former General Anders former DPWES. What is your point?

The Warsaw uprising of 1944 is something that every Poles should be proud of. 63 days fight for the insurgents, wich was waged in circumstances of crushing Germans superiority could only be waged by the patriotism, heroism and sacrifice of the whole society of Warsaw.

Polska Forever! Warsaw forever!

Ovidius
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Post by Ovidius » 02 Aug 2002 11:07

Benoit Douville wrote:You seem to take pleasure to write Hetman former General Anders former DPWES. What is your point?
To make the newer members of the Forum know that the messages signed "DPWES" or"General Anders" belong to the same person who signs now "HETMAN".

~Ovidius

Ovidius
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Post by Ovidius » 02 Aug 2002 11:18

Benoit Douville wrote:The Warsaw uprising of 1944 is something that every Poles should be proud of. 63 days fight for the insurgents, wich was waged in circumstances of crushing Germans superiority could only be waged by the patriotism, heroism and sacrifice of the whole society of Warsaw.
Make it 1,421 days fought from the plains of Bessarabia to the frozen summits of Caucasus, against the Soviet military colossus, with dated weapons, scarce ammo, corrupt management structures and bad supply network. Add an entire army(over 150,000 men) crushed at Stalingrad. Plus this:
"After World War II I asked my friend General Hans Speidel, who had commanded various mixed Axis contingents and became Field Marshal Rommel's chief-of-staff: "Which among all the non-German troops were the best soldiers: the Finns, the Croats, the Hungarians?" "None of them," he said: "the Rumanians. Give them good leadership and they are as good as any you'll find."
- Cyrus L. Sulzberger in "A Long Row of Candles"

By comparison, the Polish uprising seems more like a desperate act of the men pushed with their back to the walls and hearing the firing squad cocking their guns :mrgreen:

But anyway, I don't hear/read the cheers to the Royal Romanian Army, whose fight had been also "waged by patriotism, heroism and sacrifice". Neither the fact that "any Romanian should be proud of". Ooops... we were on the wrong side, that of the "monstrous Hitlerian regime" :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:

~Ovidius

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re

Post by tonyh » 02 Aug 2002 11:20

Actually, I've always considered the Polish uprising a rather stupid and misguided action. The Poles most definitely should have waited and made sure that the Soviets would advance, like they said they would. As it turned out the Soviets had stopped short before Warsaw and let the poor Poles make fools of themselves. The Soviets even refused to aid the Poles with air cover. The Poles originally started the uprising under Russian insistance, which was later withdrawn and condemned by the Soviets when the uprising took place. On top of that the Soviets refused passage to the British who offered to send help to the Poles. Poland has nothing to thank the Red Army for. With the Red Army's help the Polish army would have defeated the German's in shorter time than it took.

Tony

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Starinov
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Re: re

Post by Starinov » 02 Aug 2002 13:36

tonyh wrote:Actually, I've always considered the Polish uprising a rather stupid and misguided action. The Poles most definitely should have waited and made sure that the Soviets would advance, like they said they would. As it turned out the Soviets had stopped short before Warsaw and let the poor Poles make fools of themselves. The Soviets even refused to aid the Poles with air cover. The Poles originally started the uprising under Russian insistance, which was later withdrawn and condemned by the Soviets when the uprising took place. On top of that the Soviets refused passage to the British who offered to send help to the Poles. Poland has nothing to thank the Red Army for. With the Red Army's help the Polish army would have defeated the German's in shorter time than it took.

Tony
The Poles started the Uprising mostly because the Red Army was approching the city and the Gov't in London did not wanted Warasaw to fall in their hands. The Uprising was a political manoeuver. The moment the Uprising started, the Gov't in London was supposed to come back to the city and claim it as a free city. That would be the legitimate way for a gov't in exile to come back. Moscow and London were in a direct opposition as toward the faith of post-war Poland. Each of them wanted it badly.

Stalin did not intervene since he waited until the Home Army was exhausted and taken into custody. The he decided to free Warsaw. He appeared then as a liberator and Poland was his.

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