On this day in 1944...

Discussions on WW2 in Eastern Europe.
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Landser
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Re: Tony

Post by Landser » 02 Aug 2002 14:58

....I've always considered the Polish uprising a rather stupid and misguided action.....


Right on,that's one way to describe
it.It begs the comparison of today's Middle East conflict.
Heros or Terrorist'.Take your pick.

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Starinov
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Re: Tony

Post by Starinov » 02 Aug 2002 15:08

Landser wrote:....I've always considered the Polish uprising a rather stupid and misguided action.....


Right on,that's one way to describe
it.It begs the comparison of today's Middle East conflict.
Heros or Terrorist'.Take your pick.
The difference is that the Home Army members were regular soldiers fighting according to military rules.
stupid and misguided action
I don't think so. The Uprising was carefully planned.

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Landser
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Addentum

Post by Landser » 02 Aug 2002 15:42

BTW:
About the picture.
Has a rather handsome looking helmet.Much better than those GPU
look-a-like caps.

tonyh
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re

Post by tonyh » 02 Aug 2002 16:57

The Polish home army were in fact the legal successors to the Polish military.

But the rising was not well planned at all and it was rather rashly put together, resulting in the order to start fighting not reaching many of the commanders and soldiers correctly. This resulted in the first waves of attacks was carried out by about half of the home army soldiers, with only a small percentage of them properly armed.

Tony

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admfisher
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What is right?

Post by admfisher » 02 Aug 2002 19:31

Here is from the page posted before:
" But there was nothing light-hearted about the Polish attitude to the war. They were grim and tough fighters, and even the men of Rommel's Afrika Korps did not relish the thought of falling into their
hands. British Intelligence officers interrogating German prisoners found it very useful to have Polish sentries standing by during questioning. Even recalcitrant prisoners tended to modify their attitude on a hint that co-operation would result in their being placed in British, rather than Polish, custody." by DPWES post number #3.

In Normandy did the Polish commanders have to order there troops to quit killing POW's?
It is well know that the German army in France was made of up of members from all nations.

Look the point being I can quoted from a book about the french canadian soldiers killing POW's also. They had to be ordered to take it easy. The Poles that came from Canada fought as hard as there Polish coutry men.

Overall the destroyed cities and the killing of POW's was wrong. It was wrong for both sides to do.

The razing of Warsaw was terrible, with the intial invasion the city was beaten badly, after occupation it didn't get better. Then when the uprising happened Hitler ordered it to be put down with no mercy.
This is a problem when you want to fight in a city, Stalingrad, Berlin, and the others all took a horrific beating.

But now with almost 60 years past we still want to point out the rights and wrongs.
Well guess what?
Most of the world now knows the horrors visited on these cities.

No one was right. We were not right bombing Dresden, as the Germans were not right in razing Warsaw.
That said I hope that the polish will one day see that time is the ultimate healer.

In Westren Alta. you will find a whole lot of peolpe from the Ukraine, Poland and some from Germany.
They now live and work together so why is it that in Poland there is still such a deep seated hate for the Germans.

Me myself I would be ticked at the Russians just as much. They controlled your country longer than Germany, they helped invade your country with Germany.
But now I see the posts against Germany and the people I know there have gone through the pay back and healing. Why is it Poland will not do this?

If you want to get really mad, then when the Warsaw uprising happened and the Soviets sat on there hands while your Warsaw and it's people were being killed, why is it there is no anger at them. We know Stalin wanted the uprising to fail, in doing this he sent many people to there deaths, but by using the Germans to do his dirty work for him.

When the Soviets got into Berlin, it was mass rape, murder and theft at the least. Is this allright seeing as though they allready destroyed the eastren part of Germany, and the war was won.
Even the soviet commanders had to order there troops to stop the crimes as they were so out of control.

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Paul Timms
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Warsaw

Post by Paul Timms » 02 Aug 2002 20:17

The deliberate destruction was aided by the fact that the 44 rising was the 3rd major battle fought it the city. I had the honour to be in Warsaw in 1992 on the anniversary of the rising starting. All the memorials were covererd in flowers and veterans were parading,it was great. For the record i think they failed because they did not capture a single vistula bridge.

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Benoit Douville
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Post by Benoit Douville » 02 Aug 2002 20:54

Ovidius,

You can't compared the Warsaw uprising to what happened in Romania. The situation is completely different. Poland was the country who suffered the most during World War II.

I agree with Starinov that the Warsaw uprising was carefully plan. One error i think is that they should have started the uprising bfore august 1st and they waited too long. The uprising was worthwhile, no matter that it failed. Unfortunately many people died during the uprising, but many people would have died without the uprising anyway. Also, it established a Polish indentity in a time when Poland was pratically wiped off the map. The blame of the defeat of the uprising can not be focused on any one nation or group of people. The blame falls on everyone. Roosevelt could have taken more time and influence to negotiate the future boundaries of Poland instead of depending on the UN to settle the Polish question. The English could have taken a former stand against Russian diplomacy.

Admfisher,

I am interested to see you sources regarding the atrocities commited by the French Canadians.

Regards

Caldric
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Post by Caldric » 02 Aug 2002 21:13

The uprising would have been very successful if all the points had fallen into place. Such as the Soviet's watching it burn without give aid. If the Soviet's would have attacked they could have routed the German's there, considering the German's were little more then common thugs and murderer's they would have crumbled against the Red Army Infantry and Armor division's that were not far from the city. Every German involved in the mindless slaughtering in Warsaw should have been SHOT.

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Ogorek
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Post by Ogorek » 02 Aug 2002 22:07

In the first place, Warsaw had endured nearly five years of intense and cruel occupation. Thousands died in the Ghetto, thousand were executed as reprisal for resistance.

The German security apparatus was excellent (though not as effective as the Soviet) and despite terrible and cruel losses, the AK still managed to exist.

Naturally, communication was difficult. Telephones could not be used for obvious reasons. The commander of the elite Kedyw unit, which captured the Waffen SS warehouse at Stawki, was in formed of the uprising when the liaison girl of the Warsaw district Kedyw commander’s liaison girl informed him only that morning that the Uprising would take place that day. His unit’s liaison girls had to inform the rest of the company the same, all in a matter of hours.

The troops had to go to the weapons caches, get their weapons, and assemble at their designated locations. Not an easy matter in a city just behind teh front lines with armed enemy on every corner. Not all weapons could, naturally, be recovered. Not all AK soldiers were able to reach their units.

Some unit were massacred, such as at the airports, and the SS barracks in Mokotow. They were unable to seize the bridges. Also, the HG Panzer Division was moving through Warsaw on their way to the front.

The decision, right or wrong, was inevitable after the long years of occupation. AS it turned out, it left tens of thousands dead, and exchanged one set of occupiers for another. I grew up with AK people at my kitchen table. They remained resolute to the day they died. While some may scoff, it took a man who lived through both occupations to put the major cracks in the Iron Curtain. While there are people like Ovidius or Hetman (it is easy to say their names in the same breath) who only care to antagonize rather than explore the events of those times, I have always been proud to be a Pole, who like all people have their shortcomings.

I, though very far for being religious, look to Karol Wojtyla, who despite tremendous physical problems, selfless and single mindedly continues on his mission, the same way that the men of the AK did 40 years ago.

Yes, the uprising was horrible, so was Nazism, and Soviet communism, but I keep with the majority of my countrymen, no matter how flawed they be.

While people of many nationalities deservedly wallow in what tragedies befell them in the past, let it remain in the past. Let us honor those who did right, pity those who did wrong, and get on with our lives. Life can be drudgery, but there are moments when it is really worth living. All of us here have access to communicate through this technology that we all are staring at. We have the leisure time to do it.... there are few here that have any real complaints.


For further reading I might suggest, NOTHING BUT HONOR by Zawodny, or DYING WE LIVE by Kulski

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Benoit Douville
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Post by Benoit Douville » 04 Aug 2002 18:46

Admfisher,

Still waiting for your source regarding the atrocities commited by the French Canadians during World War II.

If you don't have any don't post crap like that...

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Wolfkin
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Post by Wolfkin » 04 Aug 2002 19:19

"Poland was the country who suffered the most during World War II"

Well, I guess it is all in how one defines suffering. I would say that the Soviet Union suffered the most, it lost the most people. Or Great Britain, it lost all her colonies and was now broke. Or Germany, it once again lost, was occupied and lost more land.

Poland, at the end of WW I gained land taken from Germany. After WWII, the Soviet Union took land from Poland, but then Poland was given more land that was taken from Germany.

Still, when I think of suffering, I think of the people. So, one could say that the Soviet Union sufferd the most and also gained the most in WW II.

Cheers,

Wolfkin

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admfisher
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source

Post by admfisher » 04 Aug 2002 19:29

A nation forged in fire : Canadians and the Second World War,
1939-1945: by J. L. Granatstein

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/ ... 03-9325619

Look it here my bloc friend. First don't call anything crap till you know it is.

Secound why are you so bent out of shape? Read Six War Years 1939-1945 by, Barry Broadfoot. Or try the book on the South Alberta Regt. In both books you will find some of the same stories.

Third, all nations were guilty of such things as I posted. As a person from Quebec you are responding in true form.
:mrgreen:

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Benoit Douville
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Post by Benoit Douville » 04 Aug 2002 19:42

There is nothing there in that link. No proof at all. Give me some fact.
Last edited by Benoit Douville on 04 Aug 2002 21:30, edited 1 time in total.

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Benoit Douville
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Post by Benoit Douville » 04 Aug 2002 21:28

Hi Wolfkin,

True the Soviet Union lost most people but if you think in consideration the number of the population in number comparatively to the Soviet Union Poland suffered the most:

-850 000 military losses
-6 million civilian losses

Many Poles were sent to concentration camps that virtually every family had someone closed to them who had been tortured or murdered there. Almost all the intellectual were murdered too.

You said that the Soviet Union gained the most in World War II, and who paid for that, Poland once again and the other country from Eastern Europe. You see Poland lost the war two times, in 1939 and in 1945 again when the communism regime took over.

Regards
Last edited by Benoit Douville on 05 Aug 2002 21:52, edited 1 time in total.

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admfisher
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Post by admfisher » 04 Aug 2002 21:41

Benoit Douville wrote:There is nothing there in that link. No proof at all. Give me some fact.
OK the idea is this is the book, you want me to give you quotes from the book?
I gave you three sources to give you a chance to see for yourself that there were war crimes committed by Canadians. If this was about tanks would the same attitude prevail?
:aliengray

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