On this day in 1944...

Discussions on WW2 in Eastern Europe.
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admfisher
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Post by admfisher » 04 Aug 2002 21:53

Benoit Douville wrote:Hi Wolfkin,

You said that the Soviet Union gained the most in World War II, and who paid for that, Poland once again and the other country from Eastern Europe. You see Poland lost the war two times, in 1939 and in 1945 again when the communism regime took over.

Regards
The Soviet Union may of gained but in the winners side we can the US and Canada.
The US is the ultimate winner as the Soviets are no longer. And we Canucks went from a secound rate country to the seat at the table with the G-7 nations and such. Canada's industry was given a huge boost in the war, we gave the UK, over a billion dollars in a hand out, the Commenwealth Air Training opened large area's.
The Alaska Highway opened the northern part of our country, which is very rich in resources, and last but not least the people in Europe that we helped have never forgotten the effort.

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Benoit Douville
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Post by Benoit Douville » 04 Aug 2002 22:07

Yep, some quotes would be appreciated. Talking about atrocities is not as emotional as tanks...

Regards

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Wolfkin
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Post by Wolfkin » 04 Aug 2002 23:32

Hey y'all!!!

Like I said before, it depends on how one defines suffering.

Germany was in ruins with millions dead at the end of the war. The country did not even exist as it was before the war. The country was divided and occupied.

Yes, Poland lost land to the Soviet Union. But, look at what Poland gained. Prussia, Pomerania, Silesia and access to the Baltic. All this FROM Germany.

As to human losses, I see what you are saying. You are looking at the losses in relation to the population.

But, I believe the ratios will show that Poland did not suffer the most. The Soviet Union lost over 20 million out of a pre war population of 150 million. I am not positive of the numbers. Germany lost 4 million soldiers and 2 million civilians out of a pre war population of 80 million. For Poland, you gave numbers that equaled to 1, 450,000 out of...I am unsure of Poland's pre war population, was it around 40 million? Plus, we must add... I am unsure...how many of the Jews came from Poland? Let's say 3 million.

Just from these numbers we get the following ratios:

Soviet Union: 20:150, 1:7.5, one out of every 7.5 people died

Poland: 4.45:40, 1:8.9, one out of every 8.9 people died

Germany: 6:80, 1:13.3, one out of every 13.3 people died

It is all pretty close. Of course, if I have the numbers incorrect all the ratios will change. I may have some numbers incorrect but I am sure everyone gets the general idea. The Soviet Union, Poland and Germany all suffered greatly. But, in my opinion, both Poland and the Soviet Union were in a way better position than Germany at the end of the war.

Just some ratios to compare:

United States: 400,000 kia out of a population of 150 million?, 4:1500, 1:375, one out of every 375 people died

Canada: 40,000 kia out of a population of 15 million. 4:1500, 1:375, one out of every 375 people died

Well, I kind of forgot my point...I am rambling now...if anyone wants to add to this or fix any incorrect numbers, feel free...:):):)

Cheers,

Wolfkin

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Ogorek
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Post by Ogorek » 04 Aug 2002 23:52

The toll for Poland is 6 million dead citizens out of a population of 30 million. Half those dead being Jews. (These statisics are those "accepted" for many years. I believe that they have been revised downwards, as have most death statistics for the period)

But one should not get involved in a "suffering rodeo."

If 1 out of 10,000 people in a given population are killed in traffic accidents, the percentage of you being killed is small. If you are killed, the percentage is 100%, but by that point it does not much matter to you.

I am reminded of a Dutch proverb that I learned in Oosterbeek: "One enemy can do you more harm than one hundred friends good."

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Wolfkin
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Post by Wolfkin » 04 Aug 2002 23:59

Thank you, Ogorek!

I apologize, Benoit, you are correct, Poland did have the highest ratio per population! 6 million out of 30 million would give a ratio of 1:5, which would mean one out of every 5.

Do not worry, Ogorek, I do not believe we are in a "Suffering Rodeo", we are just trying to paint a good, unbiased and balanced picture with as many facts as possible.

Cheers,

Wolfkin

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Starinov
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Post by Starinov » 05 Aug 2002 13:07

Wolfkin wrote:"Poland was the country who suffered the most during World War II"

Well, I guess it is all in how one defines suffering. I would say that the Soviet Union suffered the most, it lost the most people. Or Great Britain, it lost all her colonies and was now broke. Or Germany, it once again lost, was occupied and lost more land.
Poland lost between 18% and 20% of its population. No other countries lost as many. If we talk about real number USSR would be first but the percentage would be much lower.

Reichsadler
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Post by Reichsadler » 05 Aug 2002 13:15

Who could have possibly suffered more than the country which 'lost' the war, i.e. Germany.

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Starinov
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Post by Starinov » 05 Aug 2002 13:27

Reichsadler wrote:Who could have possibly suffered more than the country which 'lost' the war, i.e. Germany.
Countries that suffered from Germany's invasion.

Reichsadler
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Post by Reichsadler » 05 Aug 2002 14:03

Germany was invaded by FOUR foreign armies. Beat that!

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Starinov
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Post by Starinov » 05 Aug 2002 14:20

Reichsadler wrote:Germany was invaded by FOUR foreign armies. Beat that!
Well, you started the war... so don't get surprised.

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Wolfkin
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Post by Wolfkin » 05 Aug 2002 21:47

Like I said before it depends on how you define suffering. Poland and the Soviet Union both had major Human Suffering. But look at what they both gained in terms of Territory.

The Soviet Union occupied half of Europe. Poland, while true they lost land to the Soviet Union, but Poland gained Prussia, Siliesia and Pomerania from Germany. Germany did not exist as the same country at the end of the war.


P.S. Guys, little comments like "Germany started the war" and "no wonder they were invaded" and other childish comments like that just really show how immature one is. Please let's behave like adults and make this an intelligent conversation. Let's learn from the mistakes of history. Thank you.

Cheers,

Wolfkin

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admfisher
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sources

Post by admfisher » 06 Aug 2002 04:21

Benoit Douville wrote:Yep, some quotes would be appreciated. Talking about atrocities is not as emotional as tanks...

Regards
How about this get the book. When I get mine back I will post from it.
But before you go around being unsure go to a libary and start digging into our past.

If you really do not believe that our troops would do such things then be warned, there is a lesson to be learned yet.

Panzermahn
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Post by Panzermahn » 06 Aug 2002 04:47

Guys, little comments like "Germany started the war" and "no wonder they were invaded" and other childish comments like that just really show how immature one is. Please let's behave like adults and make this an intelligent conversation. Let's learn from the mistakes of history. Thank you.
i agree with you, wolfkin

Davey Boy
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Post by Davey Boy » 06 Aug 2002 06:50

Wolfkin wrote:Like I said before it depends on how you define suffering. Poland and the Soviet Union both had major Human Suffering. But look at what they both gained in terms of Territory.

The Soviet Union occupied half of Europe. Poland, while true they lost land to the Soviet Union, but Poland gained Prussia, Siliesia and Pomerania from Germany. Germany did not exist as the same country at the end of the war.


P.S. Guys, little comments like "Germany started the war" and "no wonder they were invaded" and other childish comments like that just really show how immature one is. Please let's behave like adults and make this an intelligent conversation. Let's learn from the mistakes of history. Thank you.

Cheers,

Wolfkin
Reality check Mr. Wolfkin:

The western part of Germany came off very lightly for the suffering that Germans caused in the east. The Anglo-American occupation wasn't such a terrible thing at all. In fact, billions of dollars worth of aid were pumped into West Germany.

So yeah, you're right, Germany wasn't the same country after WWII. The western part was MUCH BETTER OFF, with both freedom and wealth. In fact, western Germany NEVER had it so good as during the Cold War. And it will probably never have it so good again.

Poland, on the other hand, spent 45 years in a shit hole after losing more people as a % of it's pop than any other country in Europe. Most cities were also levelled, and much of the natural wealth was exploited by Nazi Germany to fuel the war effort.

How did you forget all that when comparing the two countries? Slip your mind did it? Grow a brain.

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admfisher
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Westwall

Post by admfisher » 06 Aug 2002 07:09

HETMAN wrote: Reality check Mr. Wolfkin:

The western part of Germany came off very lightly for the suffering that Germans caused in the east. The Anglo-American occupation wasn't such a terrible thing at all. In fact, billions of dollars worth of aid were pumped into West Germany.

So yeah, you're right, Germany wasn't the same country after WWII. The western part was MUCH BETTER OFF, with both freedom and wealth. In fact, western Germany NEVER had it so good as during the Cold War. And it will probably never have it so good again.

Poland, on the other hand, spent 45 years in a shit hole after losing more people as a % of it's pop than any other country in Europe. Most cities were also levelled, and much of the natural wealth was exploited by Nazi Germany to fuel the war effort.

How did you forget all that when comparing the two countries? Slip your mind did it? Grow a brain.
Are you forgetting that Poland fell so quickly and easily due to the lack of help from her westren allies and to top it off once the country was done the Russians helped themselves to some of poor Poland. What would of happened if the westren allies launched an invasion when there were no Pz Dv's on the Westwall?

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