On this day in 1944...

Discussions on WW2 in Eastern Europe.
Davey Boy
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Re: Westwall

Post by Davey Boy » 06 Aug 2002 11:32

admfisher wrote:
HETMAN wrote: Reality check Mr. Wolfkin:

The western part of Germany came off very lightly for the suffering that Germans caused in the east. The Anglo-American occupation wasn't such a terrible thing at all. In fact, billions of dollars worth of aid were pumped into West Germany.

So yeah, you're right, Germany wasn't the same country after WWII. The western part was MUCH BETTER OFF, with both freedom and wealth. In fact, western Germany NEVER had it so good as during the Cold War. And it will probably never have it so good again.

Poland, on the other hand, spent 45 years in a shit hole after losing more people as a % of it's pop than any other country in Europe. Most cities were also levelled, and much of the natural wealth was exploited by Nazi Germany to fuel the war effort.

How did you forget all that when comparing the two countries? Slip your mind did it? Grow a brain.
Are you forgetting that Poland fell so quickly and easily due to the lack of help from her westren allies and to top it off once the country was done the Russians helped themselves to some of poor Poland. What would of happened if the westren allies launched an invasion when there were no Pz Dv's on the Westwall?


You're not making any sense.

Oswald Mosley
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Post by Oswald Mosley » 06 Aug 2002 19:49

Caldric wrote: Every German involved in the mindless slaughtering in Warsaw should have been SHOT.
.........and much the same could be said of every Allied bomber of Axis civilians.

Oswald Mosley
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Post by Oswald Mosley » 06 Aug 2002 19:51

Starinov wrote:Well, you started the war... so don't get surprised.

Actually, Germany started the war against Poland. British and French involvement was self-determined.

Caldric
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Post by Caldric » 06 Aug 2002 19:57

.........and much the same could be said of every Allied bomber of Axis civilians.
Not quiet there Herr Oswald. Is a typical comment though, I expect nothing less. Considering the German SS even considered it over the top for what happened in Warsaw, pretty bad when the wolf winces at his own kind for killing.

But then the quote "The allies bombed" is a typical shallow remark regarding anything someone says about German warcrimes. I almost expect such silly comments when I post just about anything these days.

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Post by Oswald Mosley » 06 Aug 2002 21:01

Caldric,

You made the silly comment, not me. Shooting soldiers and all that! I agree that the Dirlewanger and Kaminsky units were a bunch of criminals, but your sweeping generalisation would mean that every German unit that fought in that battle (which was initiated by Polish irregulars) should be liquidated. Total nonsense!

Oswald Mosley
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Post by Oswald Mosley » 06 Aug 2002 21:05

Starinov wrote: Poland lost between 18% and 20% of its population. No other countries lost as many. If we talk about real number USSR would be first but the percentage would be much lower.
It puzzles me as to why you include the Jews as Poles. As there is now a Jewish state (Israel), these should be counted separately; that would in itself halve your percentage figures. Estimates of German dead are around the 8.5-9 million mark, around 11-12% of 'Greater' Germany's 1940 population.

Ovidius
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Post by Ovidius » 06 Aug 2002 22:11

Caldric wrote:But then the quote "The allies bombed" is a typical shallow remark regarding anything someone says about German warcrimes. I almost expect such silly comments when I post just about anything these days.
Yeah right, I know, the Germans bombed also, while in Rotterdam died just a few, in Belgrad and Stalingrad died twice as much as in Dresden.... The usual stuff.

Why don't you open a thread, in "Holocaust & Warcrimes" or wherever you want, over the German carpet-bombings? I'd be much interested. And I would like also to know which types of machines were used.

~Thank you,

Ovidius

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Wolfkin
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Post by Wolfkin » 07 Aug 2002 04:41

Hetman,

Grow a brain? Reality check? Where does this come from? How old are you? Do you even know how to have a decent conversation without displaying not only your uncooth manners but also your immature display of illiterate verbal masturbation?

If you have an opinion that you would like me to acknowledge I suggest you display at least an once of courtesy in your words. For I ignore anyone that brings such an unnecessary, impolite and childish display of ignorant ramblings to a forum that is supposed to resemble an atmosphere of intellectual conversation and not one that is more characteristic of a downtrodden bar.

Few people have spoken to me in such a manner, I do not speak in such a manner myself to others and I expect the same treatment in return. Do not talk to me again on this or any other forum until you learn some self-discipline. Do you understand? I am being as polite as I can and I DO NOT NEED to stoop down to the low level that YOU wallow in.

Wolfkin

Caldric
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Post by Caldric » 07 Aug 2002 05:20

Why don't you open a thread, in "Holocaust & Warcrimes" or wherever you want, over the German carpet-bombings? I'd be much interested. And I would like also to know which types of machines were used.
The German's at Stalingrad used carpet bombing, incendiary weapons, and in one raid had over 600 air craft in the raid. In that raid an estimated 40,000 civilians lost their lives. The German's used over 1000 Airplanes in the bombing of Stalingrad. I am sure they included the usual Ju-87 Ju-88 He-111 Do-17 etc. The bombing started on August 23, 1942 at 1800 hours.

Why start a new thread? Every other one whines about Allied Bombing.

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Qvist
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Post by Qvist » 07 Aug 2002 09:29

Oswald Mosley wrote:
It puzzles me as to why you include the Jews as Poles. As there is now a Jewish state (Israel), these should be counted separately; that would in itself halve your percentage figures.
What would be the sense in that? During WWII there was no Israel. Even if there had been, it remains the case that not all Jews are Israelis. Of course the Polish Jews must be reckoned Poles!

cheers

tonyh
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re

Post by tonyh » 07 Aug 2002 11:30

>>In that raid an estimated 40,000 civilians lost their lives.<<

I wonder how many civvies would have died if Stalin had allowed them to evacuate the city.

Tony

Ovidius
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Post by Ovidius » 07 Aug 2002 12:51

Caldric wrote:The German's at Stalingrad used carpet bombing, incendiary weapons, and in one raid had over 600 air craft in the raid. In that raid an estimated 40,000 civilians lost their lives. The German's used over 1000 Airplanes in the bombing of Stalingrad. I am sure they included the usual Ju-87 Ju-88 He-111 Do-17 etc. The bombing started on August 23, 1942 at 1800 hours.

Why start a new thread? Every other one whines about Allied Bombing.
Comparison between Dresden and Stalingrad:

Date: February 13-15, 1945 / August 23, 1942

No. of planes involved: 773 British + 527 American / 600 German

Firebombs: yes / yes

Deaths counted: 35,000 to 130,000 / 40,000

Sources: http://web.mitsi.com/zhukov/Stalingrad.htm

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/2WWdresden.htm

http://www.stalingrad-info.com/stalingrad1942.htm

http://english.pravda.ru/region/2001/08/23/13170.html
In witnesses' memories, 59 years ago Stalingrad looked like a "blazing bloody pot", "even the Volga was burning".
From August 23 to September 14 54,000 German bombs up to 1,000 kg weight were released over the city.
During the Stalingrad battle the major industrial centre with 525,000-people population was 91% destroyed.
~Ovidius

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Starinov
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Post by Starinov » 07 Aug 2002 14:30

Oswald Mosley wrote:
Starinov wrote: Poland lost between 18% and 20% of its population. No other countries lost as many. If we talk about real number USSR would be first but the percentage would be much lower.
It puzzles me as to why you include the Jews as Poles. As there is now a Jewish state (Israel), these should be counted separately; that would in itself halve your percentage figures. Estimates of German dead are around the 8.5-9 million mark, around 11-12% of 'Greater' Germany's 1940 population.
They were Poles. the religion does not matter. The state of Israel did not exist at that time. If it puzzles you so much why Jews are counted as Poles, well maybe, it is because some people do not care about other people's religion as you do.
Oswald Mosley wrote:I agree that the Dirlewanger and Kaminsky units were a bunch of criminals, but your sweeping generalisation would mean that every German unit that fought in that battle (which was initiated by Polish irregulars) should be liquidated.
They were not irregulars but soldiers of the Home Army.

tonyh
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Post by tonyh » 07 Aug 2002 15:02

>>They were Poles. the religion does not matter.<<

There were many many Poles who did not see it that way, Hetman.

Tony

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Starinov
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Post by Starinov » 07 Aug 2002 15:20

tonyh wrote:>>They were Poles. the religion does not matter.<<

There were many many Poles who did not see it that way, Hetman.

Tony
My name is Starinov. Not Hetman.

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