German defeat at Broszki, September 1939..

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Wolf
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German defeat at Broszki, September 1939..

Post by Wolf » 27 Aug 2002 21:02

At dawn on September 26 the column I was with suddenly stopped. Reconnoitring parties reported having seen Germans entrenched at the village of Broszki, on the Jaworow-Krakowiec highway. A single German shot rang out. The position could not be by passed. I launced my two regiments in a charge against the village. The Germans were taken compleatly by surprise; many were killed, and nearly a whole battalion captured. Then messengers came from the headquarters of the 28th German Infantry Division suggesting that we should surrender as was no way of escape open to us; the whole country had been overrun by German arimes, and Soviet troops were advancing towards the west. We refused to surrender but agreed to return the prisoners we had taken if they would refrain from attacking us.
From the book an An Army in Exile (1949) by Wladyslaw Anders, later to be commander of the II Polish Corps.


Anyone know anything about this fight? Is it true?

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Starinov
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Re: German defeat at Broszki, September 1939..

Post by Starinov » 27 Aug 2002 21:33

Wolf wrote:Anyone know anything about this fight? Is it true?
Well, I don't see why it could not be true... General Anders is far from being a liar. Also, in September 1939, there were many battles (of bigger or lesser importance) that the Poles won against Germans.

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Post by Wolf » 28 Aug 2002 00:33

Yes, but capturing a 'battalion' of Germans... not much fighting spirit in those Germans it would seem... they must have folded like old women..

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Starinov
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Post by Starinov » 28 Aug 2002 13:40

Wolf wrote:Yes, but capturing a 'battalion' of Germans... not much fighting spirit in those Germans it would seem... they must have folded like old women..
General Anders reports that he had at that time two regiments. We can assume they are formed from at least four battalions. Four against one. It is possibe, especially with a surprise effect which was used. Also, at the end of september, Germans considered the Polish Campaign over so they were not prepared to deal with attacking polish units. The Campaign started in an easy way on September first but after aprox. two weeks some ammunition was starting to be missing and the Germans had to slow down their advance. The Poles resisted until October 5th when an armistice was signed.

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Rob S.
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Post by Rob S. » 28 Aug 2002 13:56

The Polish were a brave and honorable fighting force. Too bad their country was one of the countries that was so dehumanized.

If I'm not mistaken, some of their Cavalry units charged with drawn bayonet. Now there's a sense of chivalry.

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Landser
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Post by Landser » 28 Aug 2002 15:08

RobS wrote:
If I'm not mistaken, some of their Cavalry units charged with drawn bayonet. Now there's a sense of chivalry.


Chivalry!!! against armoured vehicles? I would think thats more than stupidity!

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Starinov
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Post by Starinov » 28 Aug 2002 15:34

Landser wrote:Chivalry!!! against armoured vehicles? I would think thats more than stupidity!
This is a urban legend. It never happened. It was created by some Italian war journalists.

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Post by Wolf » 28 Aug 2002 16:12

Starinov wrote:General Anders reports that he had at that time two regiments. We can assume they are formed from at least four battalions. Four against one.
Yes, in fact his force was or at least had been even larger... but it was a battered force no way near full strength. I would think the Germans were in much better shape.

Starinov wrote:It is possibe, especially with a surprise effect which was used. Also, at the end of september, Germans considered the Polish Campaign over so they were not prepared to deal with attacking polish units.
It's not unbelievable...
Anders force did not (it would seem) have any further contact with German troops but instead had to fight off attacking Soviet forces.

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Post by Ovidius » 28 Aug 2002 16:21

Starinov wrote:
Landser wrote:Chivalry!!! against armoured vehicles? I would think thats more than stupidity!
This is a urban legend. It never happened. It was created by some Italian war journalists.
According to AchtungPanzer website, the story went as following:
Polish Campaign is surrounded by numerous myths such as the destruction of Polish Airforce in the opening hours of the invasion and Polish Cavalry charges against German armored units. Both myths are creations of German and even Italian propaganda and are very far from truth. Polish cavalry was active during the campaign and acted as horse mounted infantry. One of the most successful cavalry charges took place at Krojanty, where elements of 18th Uhlans Regiment attacked and destroyed German infantry battalion only to be counterattacked by German armored unit. Uhlans attempted to withdraw and suffered heavy losses. This event lead to the story of Polish cavalry charges on panzers. Polish Airforce was deployed at numerous airfields and although numerically inferior and partially obsolete was very active during the course of the campaign (e.g. over Warsaw). Polish pilots shot down in combat over 137 enemy planes. Polish cavalry brigades never charged tanks with their sabres or lances as they were equipped with anti-tank weapons such as 37mm Bofors wz.36 (model 1936) anti-tank guns (that could penetrate 26mm armor at 600m at 30 degrees). The cavalry brigades were in the process of being reorganized into motorized brigades.
Emphase is mine.

~Ovidius

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Rob S.
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Post by Rob S. » 28 Aug 2002 17:52

Ahh but it was an honorable myth. I don't care what the intentions were, you gotta respect the idea :D

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Landser
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The 18 day war

Post by Landser » 28 Aug 2002 20:31

Ovi
The article of G.Parada is not exactly the bibel for the Poland campaign.First of all the tone of it gives him easy away were he is comming from.Secondly his summations are rather flawed compared to other sources.
For instance he claims 2 destroyers were sunk but read "the world at war 1939" you will find a differend
answer;

WWII: The World at War 1939
Address:http://www.euronet.nl/users/wilfried/ww2/1939.htm


way down after 1 Sep 39
Last edited by Landser on 28 Aug 2002 22:29, edited 1 time in total.

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Benoit Douville
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Post by Benoit Douville » 28 Aug 2002 22:23

Yep, a honorable myth. It was not that easy for the Germans against the Poles in that campaign. The Poles did put a hell of a fight considering the equipment they had.

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Post by b_c_ries » 29 Aug 2002 03:30

I recently read a book titled, Battle Group! German Kampfgruppen action of World War Two. on page 13 it refers to letters written by unknown authors in the German 10th Army probally 16th Corps written during the Polish campaign the text of one is as follows ; "The Polish civilians are franc-tireurs and very good snipers. The regiment has lost several officers and NCO's to their unlawful activity... Polish infantry attacks are made in mass formation and although they are absolutely suicidal in the face of our fast firing machine guns I must admit that to stand and watch as those long lines of onfantry come storming forward is quite unnerving. Before any attack the Poles give three cheers- each one a long drawn out cry that sounds like animals baying for blood. A Panzerman told me how his unit was attacked by enemy cavalry. Imagine it sabres against steel plate. A prisoner taken after one such charge is said to have told the interrogating officer that his regiment had been assured the German tanks were either of cardboard or of wood and sacking. My Panzer informant recalled seeing one officer charge up to one of the vehicles in his squadron, rise up in the stirrups and give a vicious downward stroke with his sabre. This shattered in his hand and the Pole looked dumbfounded. Immediately he pulled out a pistol and fired several rounds at the panzer finally shooting himself, determined to die rather than surrender.
If 70 grains of IMR 4064 in a 7.92x57 case behind a 197 gr. fmj is too much then 85 grains should be just right.

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Post by Davey Boy » 29 Aug 2002 07:31

b_c_ries wrote:I recently read a book titled, Battle Group! German Kampfgruppen action of World War Two. on page 13 it refers to letters written by unknown authors in the German 10th Army probally 16th Corps written during the Polish campaign the text of one is as follows ; "The Polish civilians are franc-tireurs and very good snipers. The regiment has lost several officers and NCO's to their unlawful activity... Polish infantry attacks are made in mass formation and although they are absolutely suicidal in the face of our fast firing machine guns I must admit that to stand and watch as those long lines of onfantry come storming forward is quite unnerving. Before any attack the Poles give three cheers- each one a long drawn out cry that sounds like animals baying for blood. A Panzerman told me how his unit was attacked by enemy cavalry. Imagine it sabres against steel plate. A prisoner taken after one such charge is said to have told the interrogating officer that his regiment had been assured the German tanks were either of cardboard or of wood and sacking. My Panzer informant recalled seeing one officer charge up to one of the vehicles in his squadron, rise up in the stirrups and give a vicious downward stroke with his sabre. This shattered in his hand and the Pole looked dumbfounded. Immediately he pulled out a pistol and fired several rounds at the panzer finally shooting himself, determined to die rather than surrender.

Crap.

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Marcus
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Post by Marcus » 29 Aug 2002 11:02

b_c_ries,

I'm pretty sure that the story you posted is a myth and the one posted by Ovidius is a lot closer to the truth.

/Marcus

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