Could the Baltic States have resisted to the Soviet Union?

Discussions on WW2 in Eastern Europe.
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Lit.
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Post by Lit. » 06 May 2005 15:39

Here is an usual picture that Lithuanians (including kids) were forced to see in the main squares of their towns and villages in 1945-1953.

Please take a look at the brick, that was put by occupants to hold up head of one of the fallen Lithuanian heroes...
Above and below pictures are mainly from the Photo Album "For Freedom and Fatherland" /"Už laisvę ir Tėvynę" : [fotoalbumas / sudarytojai Dalia Kuodytė, Eugenijus Peikštenis, Dalius Žygelis ; teksto autoriai Dalia Kuodytė, Jonas Vaičenonis]. - Vilnius : Valstybės žinios : Lietuvos gyventojų genocido ir rezistencijos tyrimo centras, 2004 (Vilnius : Sapnų sala). - 255, [1] p. : iliustr. - Dalis gretut. teksto liet., angl. - Tiražas 1500 egz. - ISBN 9986-18-132-1 (įr.)/
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Last edited by Lit. on 07 May 2005 09:21, edited 1 time in total.

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Victor
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Post by Victor » 06 May 2005 18:41

Again, please do not forget to mention sources for photographs.

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Lit.
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Post by Lit. » 07 May 2005 13:24

Above and below pictures are mainly from the Photo Album "For Freedom and Fatherland" /"Už laisvę ir Tėvynę" : [fotoalbumas / sudarytojai Dalia Kuodytė, Eugenijus Peikštenis, Dalius Žygelis ; teksto autoriai Dalia Kuodytė, Jonas Vaičenonis]. - Vilnius : Valstybės žinios : Lietuvos gyventojų genocido ir rezistencijos tyrimo centras, 2004 (Vilnius : Sapnų sala). - 255, [1] p. : iliustr. - Dalis gretut. teksto liet., angl. - Tiražas 1500 egz. - ISBN 9986-18-132-1 (įr.)/


But the primary source of these pictures off course is (left by occupants) the archives of "Vilnius branch" of the same "company" that Russia's president Vladimir Putin belongs to.

Sorry, Mr. Vladimir Putin, but unfortunately these Lithuanian veterans of WW2 are not able to attend your celebrations of 60th anniversary of your company's "famous" achievements (shown here).

Here is 2 pictures from the same photo album (primary source this time is the collection of Mr. E.Dirmeikis).

In the upper picture you can see the class of Lithuanian primary (village) school with the teacher (in the center) - Elena Gendrolyte.

The picture bellow is the last lesson of history that was thought to their kids by the same teacher and Lithuanian partisan Elena Gendrolyte - "Balanda". Those Lithuanian kids and their parents were forcibly brought by colleagues of Mr. Vladimir Putin to attend her last history lesson - to see desecrated body of her teacher in the town of Kelme main square.

It was executed by the same vets who will parade soon in Moscow Red square, decorated with the medals "For freeing Soviet Baltic states" in front of the many leaders of democratic countries. Sorry, dear guests from EU and USA for this teacher and her pupils. They will not be able to attend this event...

Elena Gendrolyte-Jurkuniene - "Balanda" was born in 1926 in Kasciukai village, Kelmes distr., Raseiniai region. From 1947 she became supporter and liaison of Raudgiris platoon, "Kestutis" military distr. Member of staff of "Juros" ("See") military region. KIA in 1953 January 17th together with commander of "Western" ("See") part of fighting Lithuania A. Baksys - "Klajunas" and her husband A. Jurkunas - "Valeras" in the village of Pazukai, Kelme distr. Body was desecrated in Kelme. Take a look of wooden stick that was put by occupants to hold up her head.

Antanas Baksys - "Germantas", "Klajunas", "Senis" was born in 1923.06.13 Raseiniai. In the spring of 1944 he joined "Vietine rinktine".... (more later on)
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Lit.
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Post by Lit. » 07 May 2005 13:46

There are no Lithuanians, lived in occopied state in 1945-1953, who didn't saw such pictures in the main squares of their towns and villages.

Desecrated bodies of unknown Lithuanian Freedom Fighters (still the same source):
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Post by BIGpanzer » 07 May 2005 14:42

I also thought yesterday, reading the info in Internet about the planned military parade in Moscow and celebrations of 60th anniversary of the Victory, that among Russian veterans (many of them are really heroes and fought against German fascism in the bloody and terrible war!) there are men, who didn't fight in infantry, tank or aviation units, but serves without any risk for their life as security guard or investigators at dark NKVD troops, interrogated the Polish, Lithuanian and other European citizenry, as well as the huge amount of Russian soldiers and citizenry, who were in German prison before or had some disagreements. And those people wear the same medals and orders (or even more!) as the veterans who were wounded in combats with German nazis and made feats of arms :( :( :(

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Post by BIGpanzer » 07 May 2005 17:09

Just read now in French Lefigaro: http://www.lefigaro.fr/debats/20050507.FIG0055.html

The interview with Russian president V. Putin about the WWII victory, the role of USSR, USA and UK in the victory and in the joint organization of postWWII world order. Putin said that the claims of Baltic countries (the former regions of Russian Empire) to the Russia is 100% speculative and now they oppressed Russian population there. As for me, I didn't agree with these statements from the article, but with some other - agree.
Your opinions?

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I also partly agree and partly don't agree Putin's staements

Post by Mika68 » 08 May 2005 02:24

The role of Russians in annihilate natzis were enourmously. Russians sacrified millions of soldiers and civilians. That's why i think that also Finnish president Halonen must take part of victory ceremonies.

But Putin is totally wrong when he argue that Baltic states joined voluntarily to SU.

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Post by Victor » 08 May 2005 06:53

Lit., I believe you posted enough photos of corpses, to make your point. I ask you that if you want to post further such photos do it by uploading them on a photo server (like imageshack) and posting here a link to them, mentioning the fact that they can be disturbing.

See an older discussion on this type of photos here: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=414

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Re: Could the Baltic States have resisted to the Soviet Unio

Post by bratello » 01 Jun 2005 06:15

cipiao wrote: I often have read that the Baltic States had small, but yet very good and well trained armed forces, with good officers corps. In many books and sites it's said that the armed forces were prepared to resist and that it was the politicians who had affraid the soviet Union. (...) Could they repeat the brave events of Filand a few moths earlear?


From an article "Konstantin Pats - History and Myth" by Meghan MacKrell (2000) posted on http://www.iub.edu/~bafsa/articles.html (emphasis mine):

Last September, the Estonian nation relived part of its past when the leading newspaper Postimees published a nine-part series on the pre-war Estonian president Konstantin Pats. The series was based on research done by the young, up-and-coming Estonian historian Magnus Ilmjrv in preparation for a doctoral dissertation for the University of Helsinki.

The series of articles described previously unknown contacts between Pats and the Soviet government and raised the provocative question of whether Pts may have "sold-out" Estonia. Much of Ilmjrv's research on the former Estonian president and his relationship with the Soviet Union had been done in historical archives in Moscow, which until recently had been closed to scholars. In his research, Ilmjrv is primarily concerned with Pats and his relationship with the Soviet government in the years 1924-1934. Democracy in Estonia ended in 1934, when Pats established an authoritarian regime with himself as president. Ilmjrv alleges that Pats was a favorite choice of the Soviets and that they aided his rise to the Estonian presidency. Ilmjrv also accuses Pats of accepting money from the Soviets throughout the 1930s. According to Ilmjrv, this same man who has gone down in history as an honorable president-who did the best he could in the face of great odds-was ironically responsible for Estonia's loss of independence in 1939.

(...) For most Estonians, this period in their history has always been a particularly murky one, a mixture of ignorance of all the variables involved and perhaps the guilty suspicion that more could have been done to avoid the following forty-odd years of Soviet occupation. (With the exception of the Estonian metsavennad or "forest brothers," Estonians put up relatively little resistance in contrast to the Finns, who chose to fight the Soviets.) Given the size of Estonia (roughly half the size of Indiana) and the lack of the Western assistance for what would have been an impossible battle against the Soviets, Pats has usually been absolved of responsibility for Estonia's loss of independence.

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Post by Reigo » 01 Jun 2005 14:04

It must be said that Ilmjärv has indeed presented much new information, however his conclusions and accusations are sometimes very disputable. He obviously has some anti-Päts and anti-Laidoner bias. I myself can't see any possibility that the loss of independence could have been avoided.

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Post by bratello » 01 Jun 2005 18:01

Reigo wrote:It must be said that Ilmjärv has indeed presented much new information...

Do you know if that "new information", or something like a "day by day" account of the 1939-40 events by a different author(s) is available in English?

Reigo wrote:He obviously has some anti-Päts and anti-Laidoner bias.

Do you believe Ilmjarv is biased because he made some anti-Pats statements or simply because the conclusions of his Pats research run against a commonly accepted opinion about the annexation of Estonia? (It should be noted that Ilmjarv's Pats research is his PhD thesis in Helsinki University and normally should be a well documented piece. Also, as they say: "There is no smoke without fire".)

Reigo wrote: I myself can't see any possibility that the loss of independence could have been avoided.

I guess it's not about whether the loss of independence could be avoided (obviously it would have been an almost impossible task), but how much resistance could have been put by Estonian state.

Regards.

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Post by Reigo » 01 Jun 2005 20:27

Ilmjärv's book (or at least part of it) has been translated into English:

ISBN 9122020861
Ilmjärv, Magnus
Silent submission : formation of foreign policy of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania : period from mid-1920s to annexation in 1940 / Magnus Ilmjärv
Stockholm : [Institutionen för baltiska studier, Stockholms universitet], 2004
592 pages. ; 24 cm
Studia Baltica Stockholmiensia

Do you believe Ilmjarv is biased because he made some anti-Pats statements or simply because the conclusions of his Pats research run against a commonly accepted opinion about the annexation of Estonia?


I get such overall impression from his book. Besides he makes accusations against Päts and Laidoner which are poorly based. And actually he has made statements in press which are anti-Päts and anti-Laidoner.

(It should be noted that Ilmjarv's Pats research is his PhD thesis in Helsinki University and normally should be a well documented piece.


Yes it is well documented, but some of the conclusions are poor.

Also, as they say: "There is no smoke without fire".)


I agree, but Ilmjärv has created a big forest fire out of this. :)

I guess it's not about whether the loss of independence could be avoided (obviously it would have been an almost impossible task), but how much resistance could have been put by Estonian state.


The problem in short is that until the very last moment the Estonian leadership hoped to be somekind of protectorate of the Soviet Union until the start of the Soviet-German war. They were sure that this war will start very soon. If Estonia was somekind of protectorate it was hoped that there will be no sovietization. However in the case of military oppositionthe leadership feared that the complete destruction of state and heavy casualties will follow.

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Post by Mark V » 01 Jun 2005 21:26

Thanks Lit for information about resistance in Lithuania against Soviet occupation.

Nothing much than silent prayer for those who fought for what they believed could be said after seeing those pictures you posted.

The sacricife was not futile. The remembrance must have played an part of keeping the fire of freedom and independence alive during dark decades of Soviet rule. Without such national memory - maybe there would had not been anyone left to rise against Soviets again in 1991.

Such things will stay alive for, long, long time in memory of nation. The fist firm, but because impossible circumstances, kept in pocket until there was time to reveal it.


Regards, Mark V

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Post by bratello » 02 Jun 2005 07:10

Reigo wrote:ISBN 9122020861 Ilmjärv, Magnus Silent submission : formation of foreign policy of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania : period from mid-1920s to annexation in 1940...etc.

Thank you, Reigo.

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Lit.
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Post by Lit. » 01 Oct 2005 11:16

Here is a new (also for me) photo picture from the Lithuanian site http://www.ginklai.net:

Image

Lithuanian partisans from Aukstaitija, somewhere near Ukmerge.

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