Russians simply won by the power of numbers

[Evzonas]

[Split from "Re. German Heavy Panzers"]

German tank park as of 1 September 1939 had to do to demonstrate that Germany entered into Worl War II having 2668 units of Pz-I and Pz-II tanks vs. only 309 Pz-III and Pz-IV tanks. And your comment that Pz-I and Pz-II were not intended as battle tank is ridicolous. The historic truth is that Hitler achieved his famous Blitzkrieg wins in Poland having in majority obsolete and laghable tanks.

Poles and French didn't lough at all....
It's how you use a weapon and not the weapon itself that can save your neck....

Tanks speaking, russians simply won by the power of numbers... it was innevitable but does not prove anything by its own... in a war lasting 5 or so years, its also innevitable that at a given point each of the opponents would have a better type of tank, fighter, bomd or whatever else... but the next momment the opponent alarmed by slipping back would try to present something even better and so on.. the fact Russia was on the winning side means absolutely nothing when our comparison is Russian vs German tanks! Had Russia not received millions of $ worth of aid from the US, they wouldn't even have food to eat, not be able to make tanks etc...

In terms of tank warfare, if we could go back in time and say put equal numbers of each gun type in the hands of Russian and German officers, it is quite certain that in most of the time Germans would have won!

[Egorov]

In terms of tank warfare, if we could go back in time and say put equal numbers of each gun type in the hands of Russian and German officers, it is quite certain that in most of the time Germans would have won!

You are right...!
Why didn't germans phone to "superman" and "superwoman" too ?
You forget green warriors reinforcements from Mars... ( you ought to read more fanstastic )

[Evzonas]

In terms of tank warfare, if we could go back in time and say put equal numbers of each gun type in the hands of Russian and German officers, it is quite certain that in most of the time Germans would have won!

You are right...!
Why didn't germans phone to "superman" and "superwoman" too ?
You forget green warriors reinforcements from Mars... ( you ought to read more fanstastic )

Nobody mentioned Superman or Martians... If you have no real arguement on my comments, then please don't post in such redicilous manner.

Germany didn't loose by inferior tactics or inferior equipment, they simply lost because they have been outnumbered and without any reserves. Their tactics was better almost throughout WWII and their equipment was in constant development so was always up to date... defferences in presenting a new improvement by several months are a fact but the fact they also missed raw materials and factories/workers is also a factor....

I strongly object the claim for a Great Russian Victory in WWII and the greatness of Russian industry since in most of the cases Russia supplied workers and Americans prefab fuel plants, factories and ready "products". The number of "imported" vehicles, tires, boots, food, cables, airplanes tanks, almost everything came from USA. If Russia had no support from USA, they would simply loose with even worse results in terms of loss of human lives. That is because Russian leaders paid little care to protect their human resources. Losses where acceptable by all means simply because they had millions of men ready to fight. If they had the logistical paradox to be able to give all their men a weapon Russia could have won the war within a few months.... that was simply impossible...

[richardrli]

Ever heard of Moscow, Stalingrad, Kursk, Bagration or even battle for Berlin? No american help there, your knowlegdge need a little refining.

[Egorov]

If you have no real arguement on my comments, then please don't post in such redicilous manner.

I wrote with comic words for keeping your tone.
You give historic arguements exactly the sames than mines : funny.
You mix " What if " with personnal claims, which gives nothing for historic knowledge.

richardrli wrote :

Ever heard of Moscow, Stalingrad, Kursk, Bagration or even battle for Berlin? No american help there, your knowlegdge need a little refining.

Right...!

A special topic about "lend-lease" is open in this forum, and the various argumentations are not so radical than yours. ( You ought to read them before proclaiming "your own truth" )

[Karl234]

Ever heard of Moscow, Stalingrad, Kursk, Bagration or even battle for Berlin? No american help there, your knowlegdge need a little refining.

Your comment sounds like from somebody who is not able to think from 12.00 o clock to noon.

[Evzonas]

Ever heard of Moscow, Stalingrad, Kursk, Bagration or even battle for Berlin? No american help there, your knowlegdge need a little refining.

Here are articles and data from mostly Russian sources including Pravda and Novosti (Russian Information Agency):
http://english.pravda.ru/main/18/90/363 ... evelt.html
http://en.rian.ru/rian/index.cfm?prd_id ... do_alert=0
Track delivery tables : http://www.o5m6.de/numbers.html
http://wwics.si.edu/index.cfm?topic_id= ... ayout=true

You just mentioned battles from the very beggining of the war untill the very end of it.. are you serious Russia didn't receive american help throughout these years of fighting?

[Evzonas]

I wrote with comic words for keeping your tone.

Then one of us has to learn better english or cool down a bit...

You give historic arguements exactly the sames than mines : funny.

I you think I was trying to be the clown of this thread you are wrong. If you think you just made a joke you are wrong again. You simply insulted me and perhaps others trying to discuss seriously on a subject and share their knowledge or learn from others...

You mix " What if " with personnal claims, which gives nothing for historic knowledge.

I didn't set a What If question anywhere... you are taking examples as something else perhaps....

[Igorn]

Had Russia not received millions of $ worth of aid from the US, they wouldn't even have food to eat, not be able to make tanks etc... !

Had economies of invaded France, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Greece, Norway, Belgium, Netherlands etc worked on Nazi Germany during the war with Russia? Had Nazi Germany fought with USSR along or Romanian, Hungarian, Italian, Slovakian, Spanish formations took part in the war against USSR? Had Nazi Germany used natural resources and slaved labour of invaded countries and Romanian oil in particular for its military needs? 8)

In terms of tank warfare, if we could go back in time and say put equal numbers of each gun type in the hands of Russian and German officers, it is quite certain that in most of the time Germans would have won!

Your above statement is really laughable. Did you really think what you have said? Don't you want to say in this statement that Nazi Germans were ubermenschen and Russians were Untermenschen?

But your statement does not corresponds with historic facts. I want to remind you the Balaton Operation of March 1945 when having relatively equal number of tanks German 6th SS Panzer Army was disgracefully defeated in Hungary by the Soviet Army.

Best Regards from Russia,

[Evzonas]

The destiny of “swimming” Soviet tanks was sad. They did not have application in the defensive war. Where to swim in defensive war? Thousand tons of fuel supplies and spare parts prepared to support rapid offensive of the Red Army was lost at the borders. In the first days of the war these strategic supplies were caught under enemy’s fire or was captured by enemy. 4,000 light “swimming” tanks required great number of fuel but in defensive war they were not of great value. That’s why commanders ordered to pass remaining fuel from “swimming” tanks to medium or heavy tanks and ordered to destroy, explode or leave intact light “swimming” tanks. The best in the world without fuel is worse than the bad tank with fuel.

I will force myself on not getting into debate about details of x tank vs y tank as overall this topic is about German heavy tanks... comparing a myriad of types and their varieties far exceeds the purposes of a forum me thinks....

I will just stay on the above paragraph from Igorn who just said what others have said but at the time he insisted to continue debating and opening new windows in further comparison and more debating....

The best (tank) in the world without fuel is worse than the bad tank with fuel.....

That's what happened to Germans.. and in stead of fuel you may place "men" trucks" "reserve" etc...
Russian Red Army was decapitated and unable to stop German invasion. Russian Winter and overstretching the front did....

Nobody says that Russia didn't win, or was not worth the victory. Thanks to those millions of Russians who died in the frozen fields in the Eastern front we don't all speak German today..... But Russians were not all that innocent in all aspects nor did they made it by themselves.. some Russians acknowledge this and some don't (as it seems).

Please, before proceeding to a next subject, first finnish the previous issue in stake... otherwise we all get bored...

[Igorn]

Germany didn't loose by inferior tactics or inferior equipment, they simply lost because they have been outnumbered and without any reserves. Their tactics was better almost throughout WWII and their equipment was in constant development so was always up to date... defferences in presenting a new improvement by several months are a fact but the fact they also missed raw materials and factories/workers is also a factor.... ...

On what smart Hitler and his genius generals counted when they started the war with USSR? Didn't they know that USSR had greater mobilization potential? And why Germans fought "without any reserves"? And didn't Soviet tactics and equipment was in constant development and was up to date? Poor Nazi, they lost a war because they lacked raw materials and didn't have enough slave labour in concentartion camps!

I strongly object the claim for a Great Russian Victory in WWII and the greatness of Russian industry since in most of the cases Russia supplied workers and Americans prefab fuel plants, factories and ready "products". The number of "imported" vehicles, tires, boots, food, cables, airplanes tanks, almost everything came from USA. If Russia had no support from USA, they would simply loose with even worse results in terms of loss of human lives. That is because Russian leaders paid little care to protect their human resources. Losses where acceptable by all means simply because they had millions of men ready to fight. If they had the logistical paradox to be able to give all their men a weapon Russia could have won the war within a few months.... that was simply impossible...

Clown, shut up and don't throw mud at my country. Hitler would have lost a war in Russia even without US help.

Best Regards from Russia,

[DIREWOLF75]

Oh my, another "without lendlease Russia was worthless" fanboy. :roll:

Evzonas, you conveniently forget facts opposing your "truth".
If you actually took the time to think about the numbers even your OWN links show you might figure a few things out.
From one of your links:

For the record, there was also a "reverse lend-lease" of sorts, under which the Soviet Union supplied the United States with goods that the latter badly needed, including 300,000 tons of chrome ore, 32,000 tons of manganese ore, and large supplies of platinum, gold and wood.

Im SURE such quantities of alloy metal, or the absence thereof would make NO difference at all right?

During the war, 22,195 aircraft, 12,980 tanks, 13,000 guns, 427,000 automobiles, 560 ships and 345,000 tons of explosives were brought to the Soviet Union

Except for ships, USSR built helluva lot more than that itself in all categories.

And of course you havent missed out on the fact that LL duing 41-42, when matters were truly desperate in Russia, was puny in size?
Not until -43 did it really start getting big enough to make a major difference.

But of course, if you had bothered to look at the other threads on this matter you would have known all that already.
LL certainly assured the defeat of Germany.
But this:

I strongly object the claim for a Great Russian Victory in WWII and the greatness of Russian industry since in most of the cases Russia supplied workers and Americans prefab fuel plants, factories and ready "products". The number of "imported" vehicles, tires, boots, food, cables, airplanes tanks, almost everything came from USA.

You just dont have ANY clue what you are talking about.

[Evzonas]

Had economies of invaded France, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Greece, Norway, Belgium, Netherlands etc worked on Nazi Germany during the war with Russia? Had Nazi Germany fought with USSR along or Romanian, Hungarian, Italian, Slovakian, Spanish formations took part in the war against USSR? Had Nazi Germany used natural resources and slaved labour of invaded countries and Romanian oil in particular for its military needs? 8)

Those countries were forced to deliver raw materials, slave labour, and money to the Axis... those countries though were forcing Germans to maintain a lot of troops in alert and far from the Eastern Front. Even those that gave troops to the Germans, were far inferior in organisation and material aspect than Germans or Russians. Most of the countries you mention were occupied and suffering as part of Axis. Economies of these countries were paralised and had very little to contribute military to the Axis... In any point of view, the aid those occupied countries might provide to Axis could not be compared to that US gave to Russia!

Your above statement is really laughable. Did you really think what you have said? Don't you want to say in this statement that Nazi Germans were ubermenschen and Russians were Untermenschen?

If you are loughing at my statements, then there is no need to continue this discussion...
I am not your clown and if you can't discuss civilised then we need say no more.
Finaly, my statement simply means that Germans used far more advanced tactics and nothing more! Claims about untermenschen etc are returned to you. Not my words and please don't put words in my mouth. I never unterestimated Russian people. Neither glorified Nazis. In plain military ability, Germans had the tactics Russians the numbers. Given they used equal numbers of men and equipment, 9 out of 10 times Germans could have won....

But your statement does not corresponds with historic facts. I want to remind you the Balaton Operation of March 1945 when having relatively equal number of tanks German 6th SS Panzer Army was disgracefully defeated in Hungary by the Soviet Army.

An army without fuel, without reserve, without moral and in retreat is compared to an army with plenty of reserve, with fresh troops in most part, with moral of Victors and a race towards Berlin as sole target.....!
Excellent... you couldn't provide a better example here.

[Karl234]

Your above statement is really laughable. Did you really think what you have said? Don't you want to say in this statement that Nazi Germans were ubermenschen and Russians were Untermenschen?

Best Regards from Russia,

@Igorn

When the russian tanks are so super good like you are telling. And so resistant against every german shell.
Then your are pressing the russian tank crews or the russian generals a stamp of idiots on.
You`re blame the red army.

Was your father or grandfather KIA?

[Evzonas]

Oh my, another "without lendlease Russia was worthless" fanboy. :roll:

Not the case.. I never said Russia was worthless. Keep personal and insulting accusations to yourself.

Evzonas, you conveniently forget facts opposing your "truth".

I might not know instead of "conveniently forget".... keep some perspective on your words please. Unless you know everything.....

If you actually took the time to think about the numbers even your OWN links show you might figure a few things out.
From one of your links:

For the record, there was also a "reverse lend-lease" of sorts, under which the Soviet Union supplied the United States with goods that the latter badly needed, including 300,000 tons of chrome ore, 32,000 tons of manganese ore, and large supplies of platinum, gold and wood.

Im SURE such quantities of alloy metal, or the absence thereof would make NO difference at all right?

I never objected the fact of a reverse lend-lease agreement. Nor did I comment of Russian inability or weakness in production. As said, Russian provided the workers and americans the factory plants, the blueprints, food etc.. There could be no other way around... but without this help, Russia would be missing high octane fuel, food, machinery, trucks etc. If you read more about lend-lease, you will perhaps notice that Russians received more "peacefull" stuff than tanks. They evev received boots made according to the Tzars shoemaker reccomendations as he was in US after 1918 events. It does not lower the view of Russian people efforts per se. Americans gave them what they needed in order to produce localy heavier weaponry and war material that would cost much more to transport and would take longer to reach the front..

During the war, 22,195 aircraft, 12,980 tanks, 13,000 guns, 427,000 automobiles, 560 ships and 345,000 tons of explosives were brought to the Soviet Union

Except for ships, USSR built helluva lot more than that itself in all categories.

Agreed, see above!

And of course you havent missed out on the fact that LL duing 41-42, when matters were truly desperate in Russia, was puny in size?
Not until -43 did it really start getting big enough to make a major difference.

But the difference was already there by the fact Germans were already half-defeated by the Winter. Since they didn't take Moscow on their first chance that was it! But, without American help, it would take at least an extra year and more casualties from both sides and to defeat Germany. Without American steel, aluminum and high octane aviation fuel, Russia would built far less aircraft and tanks that were so badly needed.

But of course, if you had bothered to look at the other threads on this matter you would have known all that already.
LL certainly assured the defeat of Germany.

Exactly my point... I am not saying Russian couldn't defeat Germans by themselves. They could... They could do many things in order to do it... but you can't be sure about that. Americans didn't give Russia ALL the weapons or everything else needed to defeat Germany... but they certainly showed them the way to produced those weapons and gave them materials needed in order to do so themselves... short of the "Give a man a fish and he will not be hungry for the day... Teach them to fish and they will never be hungry again!"

But this:

I strongly object the claim for a Great Russian Victory in WWII and the greatness of Russian industry since in most of the cases Russia supplied workers and Americans prefab fuel plants, factories and ready "products". The number of "imported" vehicles, tires, boots, food, cables, airplanes tanks, almost everything came from USA.

You just dont have ANY clue what you are talking about.

[/quote]

I hope you understand English is not my mother-tongue and I just hope my above explanations correct this.....[/quote]