L'vov Sandomierz

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Qvist
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Post by Qvist » 13 Nov 2007 18:25

Actually, I chanced across this just this afternoon - the Heeresarzt 1 report for III Dekade July, issued as late as October, clearly encompass the Brody losses. This gives the following losses:

14.SS: 98 KIA, 968 WIA, 9049 MIA=10115, plus 7 casualties listed in II-7.
KA C: 236 KIA, 824 WIA, 5531 MIA=6591, plus 153 casualties in II-7
349 ID: 352 KIA, 963 WIA, 4246 MIA=5561, plus 293 in II-7
361 ID: 245 KIA, 879 WIA, 6306 MIA=7430, plus 30 in II-7
454. Sich.D.: 87 KIA, 151 WIA, 4043 MIA=4281, plus 21 in II-7
XIII AK: 174 KIA, 434 WIA, 2984 MIA=3592


Which appears to bring us to, exactly, around 36,000. Pretty good guess you had there.

cheers

Andreas
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Post by Andreas » 13 Nov 2007 19:32

Hardly a guess, just using some math and the stupendous info you provide.

These figures should really be added to the site, you know.

All the best

Andreas

Kelvin
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Post by Kelvin » 05 Feb 2008 18:57

Hi Ovist, you have breakdown in German loss division by division in Brody battle , so I would like to know do you have same figures in Operation Bagation or Jassy Kishinev campaign 1944 I mean division by divsion

Kelvin

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Qvist
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Post by Qvist » 05 Feb 2008 19:39

Hello Kelvin

These two operations were such complete disasters that there was not the slightest possibility of the running reporting coping with it, and figures were only established well after the event. The best bet is to look at the documentation of the respective Abwicklungsstäbe tasked with finalising these losses. I think I have those somewhere for these operations, but not sure if I wrote down the divisional breakdown. Will see what I can find over the next days.

cheers

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Post by Kelvin » 06 Feb 2008 05:04

Hi Ovist, did German 340th infantry division and 8th Panzer division casualties was included in Brody battle ? Or if casualties breakdown in five divisions in Crimea May 1944, do you have these ? These five divisions included 50,73,98,111 and 336 infantry and 9th Flak division ?

Kelvin

Melnyk
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losses of 14 Galician Div at Brody

Post by Melnyk » 08 Feb 2008 18:10

Hello

losses of the 14 Gal Div at Brody is a contentious issue.

Everyone is agreed that the 14 Gal div deployed very close to 11,000 at the begining of the battle.
2,807 men together with their portable weaponry were accounted for a short time after the battle when the survivors were regrouping in Seredne, by a two man team from the 14 Gal div (Wasyl SIRSKJ and Roamn SHIRKO) which had been charged with the task of registering the survivors. The majority of these were the approximately 1,190 from the supply and support units most of which escaped encirclement.
This leaves 8200 who were thought to be missing or killed in Aug 1944.

After that time a number of stragglers returned to the Division. I dont have an exact figure but I would make an eductated guess at least 500-800 men. I fwe take the higher figure of 800 this leaves 7,400 missing or killed.

either way the figure quoted in the source referred to by QVIST of 10115
if certainly not correct.

When I researched this subject (ie L'viv - Sandomierz operation) or Battle of Brody as it has become known, I found the after action reports filed by every German unit involved with the exception of those filed by the 14 Gal Div. Why? No idea. I looked high and low for them but never found them. I know that these reports were handed to Himmler personally in August 1944 in Berlin by the 14 Gal Divs commander Fritz Freitag but I have never been able to track them down. I always figured as a Waffen SS unit these reports would have been filed separately from those of the regular Heer units involved.

If anyone can throw some additional light on this issue, nobody would be more pleased than me,

best wishes

Mike Melnyk

Kelvin
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Post by Kelvin » 15 Feb 2008 04:12

the loss of 340th infantry division including the killing of its commander Otto Beutler was included in Brody pocket or not ? Some book claimed its destruciton in brody e.g. George Nafziger and Samuel Mitcham. what its casualties ?

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Re: L'vov Sandomierz

Post by Andreas » 03 Mar 2008 17:34

340. ID was inside the encirclement, judging from the maps I have seen. Since the main breakout occured at the SW end of the encirclement, i.e. the part of it furthest away from 340. ID, one can assume that its losses would have been very heavy, with only few of those who were encircled escaping.

All the best

Andreas

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Re: L'vov Sandomierz

Post by Kelvin » 04 Mar 2008 09:47

Hi Andreas, but your casualties list did not include the casualties of 340th infantry division. Based upon your data, 340 was destroyed in Brody pocket but many books like Samuel Mitcham " German defeat in the East" Alex Butcher " Ostfront 1944" did not include her in pocket but in overrall casualties in Lvov Sandimeriz operaton.

Kelvin

Andreas
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Re: L'vov Sandomierz

Post by Andreas » 04 Mar 2008 12:00

Hi Kelvin

Qvist has the right numbers in his post, I should think:
Qvist wrote:
That is interesting. The Soviet general staff study claims that the German strength (excluding Hungarians) was 300,000. In terms of casualties inflicted they claim 'as many as 200,000' KIA/MIA/POW/WIA by July 31st.

47,000 of these from the Brody encirclement. Their claim for this again gets endorsed by a German commanding officer participating in the battle, the GOC Korpsabteilung C. Since the encirclement covered six divisions, a Korpsstab, and presumably assorted Heerestruppen, and since not a lot of Germans escaped (3-5,000 from what I have read - even though the Red Army GSS would give you the impression that none did), this figure maybe a useful upper limit. Korpsabteilung C lost 4,120 KIA/MIA in the battle, but it was not completely encircled, and did better than the others in breaking out, due to its location in the encirclement.
Korpsabteilung C
349.ID
361.ID
454.Sicherungsdivision
14. Waffengrenadierdivision der SS (Galizien)
The Abwicklungsstab responsible for HG NU operated with a total of 47-49,000 men for 183, 340, 349, 361 Id, 454 Sich D, and Korpstruppen. Of these, it classed almost 25,000 men as "Lebend", meaning that it put the dead and missing at 23-25,000 for these divisions. That of course does not encompass Korpsabteilung C or "Galizien". Unusually for these staffs, they also seem to have managed to get the number of unclarified cases down to zero. The last figures, from 1 March 1945 state;

Gesamtstärke Gefallen Vermisst Lebend Unerklärt
47877 1550 20216 24758 0


cheers
Note that where he writes 183. ID he refers to Korpsabteilung C.

All the best

Andreas

2KILFA
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Re:

Post by 2KILFA » 19 Nov 2022 23:52

Qvist wrote:
13 Nov 2007 18:25
Actually, I chanced across this just this afternoon - the Heeresarzt 1 report for III Dekade July, issued as late as October, clearly encompass the Brody losses. This gives the following losses:

14.SS: 98 KIA, 968 WIA, 9049 MIA=10115, plus 7 casualties listed in II-7.
KA C: 236 KIA, 824 WIA, 5531 MIA=6591, plus 153 casualties in II-7
349 ID: 352 KIA, 963 WIA, 4246 MIA=5561, plus 293 in II-7
361 ID: 245 KIA, 879 WIA, 6306 MIA=7430, plus 30 in II-7
454. Sich.D.: 87 KIA, 151 WIA, 4043 MIA=4281, plus 21 in II-7
XIII AK: 174 KIA, 434 WIA, 2984 MIA=3592


Which appears to bring us to, exactly, around 36,000. Pretty good guess you had there.

cheers
Can you provide exact reference to this?

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