Italian 8th Army - Defense of Kantemirovka and Rossosh

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Larry D.
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Post by Larry D. » 04 Jun 2005 23:20

It works for me, Mark. It looks to be a good, solid translation.

--Larry

Mark V.
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Post by Mark V. » 04 Jun 2005 23:30

Thanks Larry :) (for the encouragement).

Abel Ravasz
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Post by Abel Ravasz » 05 Jun 2005 20:12

Hi Marko,

now it seems completely clear that there were at least some elements of KG Tyroller that got out of the pocket on land. But how...? And why...? Maybe it's just me, but I cannot see the reason behind this all...

Abel

Strovalnyk
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Post by Strovalnyk » 18 Jan 2006 15:13

Larry D. wrote:HELP!

Can anyone recommend some sources, probably in the Italian language, that provide at least 3 or 4 pages of details on the defense of Kantemirovka 20-30 Dec 42 and Rossosh 14-17 Jan 43 by units of the Italian 8th Army? The C.A. Alpino defended the latter, but I don't know who defended the former. Although I am interested in the details of the overall defense of these two pivotal railway towns along the rail line from Voronezh to Millerovo, I am particularly interested in the defense of the airfields there by disparate ground elements of the German Luftwaffe. I have already searched the internet and tried to locate published material in English and German on the subject, but there is very little and what there is lacks detail. At this point, I suspect what I am looking for can only be found in Italian language works like the Historical Office of the Italian Army General Staff book Le Operaazioni Delle Unità Italiane Al Fronte Russo (1941-1943). Does this work cover Kantemirovka and Rossosh in detail? I can fumble and stumble along in written Italian, so don't hesitate to make recommendations in that language. Like you, I just don't want to order a bunch of books only to discover on arrival that they don't cover what I am looking for!

Many thanks in advance,

--Larry
Hi

It is a bit late butt I hope that this information will be helpful anyway. Recently in my friend collection I found a book by Alessandro Massignani, Alpini e Tedeschi sul Don, Edizioni Gino Rossato, Novale-Valdagano(Vicenza)1991.
Is it any good I don't now because my Italian is very poor, but what I can tell is that most of the book is about Alpini corps and XXIV. panzerkorps in Ostrogoshsk-Rossosh operation. Smaller part is about Uranus and Little Saturn operations, from what I can understand very briefly described. At the end of the book is appendix with transcription of original German and Italian documents all of them about Ostrogoshsk-Rossosh operation.

Strovalnyk

Larry D.
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Post by Larry D. » 18 Jan 2006 16:00

Strovalnyk -

Thanks for the recommendation. I'll see what I can find out about that book. It may have some of the information I am looking for.

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Lupo Solitario
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Post by Lupo Solitario » 18 Jan 2006 21:30

I got it (and I suppose every other italian on forum too... :wink: ). It's the book which had renewed the vision of ARMIR campaign in the '90s, analyzing the retreat of Alpine Corps thru a detailed comparison between sources (including german ones which paradoxaly was something new between italian scholars).

it's a "must" for whoever wants to study seriously the retreat of Alpine Corps...unfortunately it's not so much dedicated on other episodes of ARMIR campaign. Again it's an analysis book on campaign, ie does not describe episodes or give details cause it supposes reader is just quite learned about them. The original document appendix is well cared and very good.

Morale: if you can read italian, read it

oricchi
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Post by oricchi » 24 Jan 2006 12:11

I have a relevant number of books on the subject, very much like Lupo, I suppose.

I could dig out and try to scan the battle report on the 75/46 AA battery engagement against tanks which can be found in the Valori book.

Would this be of any interest?

There are here and there battle reports (mostly "episodes") in several books
For instance, in the book about the Monte Cervino battalion, or the one on Alpin troops fightings in WWII, ... good accounts, even if with a journalistic style are "Tutti i vivi all'Assalto" and the less recent "Tragedia sul Don"

Would it be of interest if I posted a selected bibliography?

Ottavio


PS this forum is great!

Larry D.
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Post by Larry D. » 24 Jan 2006 14:10

Ottavio -

Welcome to the Forum and thanks for your kind offer. My interest concerns the involvement of the German Luftwaffe ground units that participated in the defense of the airfields at Kantemirovka and Rossosh, but it now appears that the Italian units had little contact with them so they had scant or no information as to which Luftwaffe units were involved or what they were doing. The Italians and the Luftwaffe appear to have been two separate groups in the same place at the same time, but with little contact or coordination between them. Unfortunately, the Luftwaffe records that would answer most of my questions were either destroyed at the time or at the end of the war. However, if by chance you come upon an Italian account of these actions that provides generous details on the Luftwaffe ground units that were involved (airfield troops, servicing and support troops, signal troops, Flak units, supply and construction units, etc.), then I would really, really appreciate knowing about it. :)

Thanks again,

--Larry

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Lupo Solitario
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Post by Lupo Solitario » 25 Jan 2006 13:32

Larry D. wrote:Ottavio -

Welcome to the Forum and thanks for your kind offer. My interest concerns the involvement of the German Luftwaffe ground units that participated in the defense of the airfields at Kantemirovka and Rossosh, but it now appears that the Italian units had little contact with them so they had scant or no information as to which Luftwaffe units were involved or what they were doing. The Italians and the Luftwaffe appear to have been two separate groups in the same place at the same time, but with little contact or coordination between them. Unfortunately, the Luftwaffe records that would answer most of my questions were either destroyed at the time or at the end of the war. However, if by chance you come upon an Italian account of these actions that provides generous details on the Luftwaffe ground units that were involved (airfield troops, servicing and support troops, signal troops, Flak units, supply and construction units, etc.), then I would really, really appreciate knowing about it. :)

Thanks again,

--Larry
Larry, this seems true for the largest part of reports on winter 1942 battles for any german and italian unit involved...
Italian and German reports seem always skip each other presence and, if needed, usually speak of other in the worst possible terms...for germans italians are good only to escape and for italians germans are good only to let italians into the trouble...
Hoping to see any distinction between "Heer" and "Luftwaffe" is a dream, identifing a unit a nightmere.
the named Massignani book is a precious exception in this scape, but I fear there are few data about what you're looking for

Larry D.
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Post by Larry D. » 25 Jan 2006 15:02

Lupo S. wrote:
Larry, this seems true for the largest part of reports on winter 1942 battles for any german and italian unit involved...
Italian and German reports seem always skip each other presence and, if needed, usually speak of other in the worst possible terms...for germans italians are good only to escape and for italians germans are good only to let italians into the trouble...
Hoping to see any distinction between "Heer" and "Luftwaffe" is a dream, identifing a unit a nightmere.
the named Massignani book is a precious exception in this scape, but I fear there are few data about what you're looking for.
Thanks, Lupo. That's what I thought. The same applies to the German records, too. There is almost no mention of the Luftwaffe in the records of Armeeoberkommandos, Generalkommandos (Korps-) and Divisionen. It's as if the Luftwaffe did not exist. So it does not surprise me that there was no mention in the Italian records either.

--Larry

oricchi
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Post by oricchi » 25 Jan 2006 15:28

Well,
I had a quick look at my sources and I can confirm that there is no mention to Luftwaffe.
The book on Monte Cervino aknowledge the existence of the Rossoh airoprt and states that during the Russian attack two companies of an alpini battalion were sent to the airport to defend it.
...however there is adknowledgment of intense Stukas' activity during the battle and that a column of the tank brigade that attacked Rossoh was sent toward the airport to gain control of it.

Ottavio


I will look more in depth into what I have but I think that I will very hardly fine relevant details

Larry D.
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Post by Larry D. » 25 Jan 2006 16:03

Thanks for checking, Ottavio. I think the Luftwaffe at Kantemirovka and Rossosh can now be considered a very minor footnote to history that will for all time remain lost. The one remaining hope might be that some of the surviving senior officers were required to write after action reports and that one or more of these might turn up somewhere some day.

--Larry

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Post by Jan-Hendrik » 06 Oct 2007 16:02

Fine Thread, gentlemen 8-)


Just stumbled over it as I was seeking info on the Kampfguppe Tyroller :wink:

By the way, for the fights of 19.PzD. to free Kampfgruppen Göller and Tyroller there is a bit in Dr. Rolf Hinze's 19. Infanterie- und Panzer-Division. Divisionsgeschichte aus der Sicht eines Artilleristen, p.409ff

Jan-Hendrik

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