17th Army and the Crimea '44

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Yuri
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Post by Yuri » 17 Aug 2007 21:23

Jan-Hendrik wrote:
Units SS and police-führer — 6,000 men


Schuma-Btls.. 147, 148, 149, 150, 154

Would be interesting to estemish their real personal strength :wink:

Jan-Hendrik

Who posessed these units? SS or police-führer?

In total for April, 9 on a contentment of 17-th Army (including sea infantry and, the so-called, civil personnel) was 235,000 men

In view of the updating which have arrived from April, 12 till May, 9 (including penal battalions) and holidayers it will make near 245,000 - 250,000


File WF-03/50075. pp.100-102:

Top secret.
Only for command 17-n Army.
Operations section # 38/44 top secret 8.04.1944.
The appendix 2 to the Plan 1.

Instructions on creation of groups on evacuation.

I. The following service instances are obliged to create groups for evacuation (further, in items 1 — 16, names of these instances are listed: The Konrad's Group, 5th AK, 1th Romanian mountain - rifle AK and òàò further — the Note of the translator).

II. Arrangement of groups of evacuation.

1. All named in items 1 — 16 services create groups for evacuation from units and subdivisional which sharply are not necessary for direct operations or supply during carrying out of operation "Tiger".

2. All available military units to reconsider, leave for fights of covering and supply necessary for fight a small amount of people. Other soldiers and "Hiwi" to send.

3 Quantity of technical armies to leave necessary, it defines command AK. The subordinated building armies also to send. After the arrival to Sevastopol they at once act in submission of the commandant of a fortress for manufacture of works.

4. Completely to send the following parts, services and establishments:
a) All army and a land forces of a part of supply, except for what will be necessary in Sevastopol.

b) The personnel of military - economic command, except for those who will destroy and destroy objects...

d) All counterprospecting and propaganda bodies.

5. Total of the armies intended for a withdrawal in the approximated figures:

1) The Konrad's Group, including Romanian Cavalery Corps — 21,000 men
2) 5 AK — 16,000 men
3) 1-st Romanian mountain - rifle corps — 5,800 men
4) OKM — 3,400 men
5) 1-st air corps — 3,600 men
6) 9-n AA division — 3,900 men
7) SS and police-furhrer — 6,100 men
8) Harko 304 — 800 men
9) Communication troops — 600 men
10) Engineering troops — 3,000 men
11) Troops of rear (including military - economic command) — 27,000 men
12) Kodeais — 17,330 men [railway troops -Yuri]
13) Field commandant's offices 853 — 500 men
14) Counterspionage and propagation — 550 men
15) A staff of 17-th army — 400 men

Andreas
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Post by Andreas » 18 Aug 2007 11:42

Yuri

Is that a simple translation of an original German document?

All the best

Andreas

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Yuri
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Post by Yuri » 18 Aug 2007 14:24

Andreas wrote:Is that a simple translation of an original German document?


Yes, it is the German document of a staff of 17 Armies – it is stored in the German archive in Potsdam.
His target data: WF-03/50075. pp.100-102:
The most part of documents in Litvin's book from this archive.

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Yuri
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Post by Yuri » 19 Aug 2007 04:07

According to a HQ of 17th Army of for the period from April, 3 till May, 13 it has been evacuated (include by air) approximately total 137,000 person – including wounded, "Hiwi", civil and PoWs. If, as informs Victor, figure of "Hiwi" and PoWs 19,000 men then a figure of the evacuated Germans, the Romanian and Slovaks will be 118,000 men. Hence, the total figure of Germans, the Romanian and Slovaks of victims in fight, PoWs and sunk in the sea will make irrevocable losses from 127,000 up to 132,000 men. According to a staff of 17th Army in the sea has sunk 45,000 men. Apparently, this figure is overestimated on 13,000 – 18,000 men.
It follows from the messages which have arrived from the Soviet armies 4-th UF.
Total figure PoWs is a little more than 61,000 (from them 53,000 Germans). The death-roll is estimated near 40,000 men (from them on cape Chersonese near 20,000 men).
Thus, a figure sunk in the sea from 27,000 up to 32,000 men.

In German documents with date after May, 13 it is necessary to concern to figures very cautiously. As Commanding 17th Army has presented more hardly accusations to Commanding on OKM on Black sea.
In these documents, on the one hand, Commanding 17th Army overestimates a figure sunk in the sea, and Commanding OKM on Black sea, on the other hand, to aspire will overestimate a figure evacuated.
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Post by Michate » 20 Aug 2007 08:01

His target data: WF-03/50075. pp.100-102:


This refers to the "Militärarchiv der DDR", which is no longer in existence.

AFACS the records stored in this archive are to be integrated into the BA-MA and in the mean time are to be stored as a "Zwischenbestand". Wehther integration in the BA-MA has been completed I cannot say.

BTW, you can see nearly all the figures are rounded to make full the nearest 1,000 or at least 100.
Generally ration strength figures were rounded to tthe high side, sometimes considerably so (witness the discussion around thestrength figures in the Stalingrad pocket or the ration strength vs. actual strength of AG North in spring 1943), so it may be difficult to take the strength differences as a direct measure of losses.

BTW 2, Hiwis are included in the ration strength figures, so in your calculation of losses they have essentially been counted twice.

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Yuri
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Post by Yuri » 20 Aug 2007 13:58

Michate wrote:BTW 2, Hiwis are included in the ration strength figures, so in your calculation of losses they have essentially been counted twice.


It not the true assumption.

For April, 3 1944 in structure 17-n the Army was present total (in view of a figure German, Romanian Slovak troops, and as figures Hiwi and figures türk-units/türk-legion) more than 260,000 men.
It agrees the Victor's data, figure Hiwi near 18,500 men.
Hence, the figure türk-units should make 6,000-7,000 men.
We have an opportunity to check up this figure as in the Litvin's book there is a document made by operations section HQ Commanding by a troops of Crimea. In it of the document is specified the figure türk-units.

File WF-05/28598. p.615

Strictly confidential
Commander a troops of Crimea HQ, 3/09/1943.
Operations section # 2338/43
Figure taking place at the order Commander by a troops of Crimea of auxiliary forces as of September, 1, 1943.

1. Türk-units (include Türk-legion, including held on construction and in rear units). Total 7,420 men. From them 7,197 men former POWs.

2. Security units (basically the Crimean tatars, included in security subdivisions on a residence). Total 20 men. *

3. Auxiliary forces which already for a long time serve at Wehrmacht. Only 3,065 men. From them former POWs - 2,043 men. Except for 4-th and 75-th Azerbaijan units which should arrive in our order.

Total 10,505 men.
-----------------------------------------------
* Agents from among local residents consisting on the maintenance of German units.



Apparently, the figure türk-units makes on 3/09/1943 total 7,440 men.
And though this figure for September, 1, 1943, however, for the period since September 1943 till April 1944 she should not change strongly because:
First, türk-units were used in rear (the big losses at them were not), and second, these units anywhere from Crimea were not thrown.

Thus, the figure 235,000 on 8/04/1944 is German, Romanian and Slovak troops. As for six days during the period from April, 3 till April, 8 1944 operations in Crimea were not and there was no evacuation of a troops.

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Post by Michate » 20 Aug 2007 14:14

Well,

none of the document texts you have reproduced shows this

Apparently, the figure türk-units makes on 3/09/1943 total 7,440 men.
And though this figure for September, 3, 1943, however, for the period since September 1943 till April 1944 she should not change strongly because:
First, türk-units were used in rear (the big losses at them were not), and second, these units anywhere from Crimea were not thrown.

Thus, the figure 235,000 on 8/04/1944 is German, Romanian and Slovak troops. As for six days during the period from April, 3 till April, 8 1944 operations in Crimea were not and there was no evacuation of a troops.


Well, nowhere - neither here nor in in the other documents is it stated that these were not already included in the 235,000 men figure.Also, Litvin's book provides a ration strength figure of 235,000 people (the same number can be found in the books by Hillgruber and Tieke). Generally all Hiwis, foreign troops and so on were included in ration strength figures.

Do you have a complete breakdown of the 235,000 figure or a document providing this 260,000 men figure, or is this just another assumption?

BTW, you are familiar with German strength rerporting (Verpflegungsstärke, Iststärke, Kopfstärke, Gefechtsstärke, Kampfstärke)?

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Post by Andreas » 22 Aug 2007 13:21

Yuri wrote:
Andreas wrote:Is that a simple translation of an original German document?


Yes, it is the German document of a staff of 17 Armies – it is stored in the German archive in Potsdam.
His target data: WF-03/50075. pp.100-102:
The most part of documents in Litvin's book from this archive.


Thank you Yuri.

All the best

Andreas

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Re: 17th Army and the Crimea '44

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 25 Nov 2008 19:05

I just got a buch of interesting documents regarding AOK 17 in April and My 1944 8-)

Here is one regarding the see- and land transports from Sewastopol 1.- 14.Mai 1944:

Image

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Re: 17th Army and the Crimea '44

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 27 Nov 2008 06:46

Troop strength on 3rd May 1944:

Image

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Re: 17th Army and the Crimea '44

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 27 Nov 2008 15:02

The transports on sea and air way to Sewastopol:

Image

Image

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Re:

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 27 Dec 2018 09:27

Andreas wrote:
02 Nov 2005 21:20
Hi Anglian

Thanks for coming back on this. My question was relating to the tank destructions. No mention this in Ziemke (I just checked), and I do not consider Irving a reliable source.

All the best

Andreas
This order can be found in the KTB I.Flakkorps.

by the way, did we had already this report by GL Pickert?

Jan-Hendrik

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Re: 17th Army and the Crimea '44

Post by Art » 11 Jan 2019 07:26

Artillery of the 17 Army in April 1944:
http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/pages/55893/zooms/8
Looks like most of guns were lost in just several days during a retreat to Sevastopol.

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Re: 17th Army and the Crimea '44

Post by Art » 20 May 2019 19:18

Schematic order of battle of the 9 Flakdivision in Crimea, early April 1944:
http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/pages/863215/map
Map of deployment:
http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/pages/863216/map
Order of battle as of 9 April 1944:
http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/pages/862205/zooms/8
http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/pages/862206/zooms/8
http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/pages/862207/zooms/8
http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/pages/862208/zooms/8
http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/pages/862209/zooms/8

The division had with tactically attached Army's and Navy's units 37 heavy, 6 medium, and 23 light batteries. Total strength is listed as 187 88-mm, 49 37-mm, and almost 400 20-mm guns (single and quad), about 12 000 men (as of 25 January 1944).

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Re: 17th Army and the Crimea '44

Post by Art » 20 May 2019 19:25

After a retreat to Sevastopol the 9 Flakdivision counts only 18 heavy, 4 medium and 12 light batteries. Losses are listed as about 110 88-mm, 23 37-mm, and about 240 20-mm guns.
http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/pages/862242/zooms/8
http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/pages/862243/zooms/8

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