Heroic Defense of the Adzhimushkai Quarry in 1942

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Kunikov
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Post by Kunikov » 17 Sep 2005 16:52

Michate wrote:Well, Socialist Realism heroic stories make a nice read, but I can see no proofs to the many claims made in the paragraphe.

Not to mention by German accounts (from 45th Inantry Division) the battle for Brest was over by 30th June, when the garrison surrendered after it had put up a very tough resistance.

Regards


Fighting at Brest continued well into July.

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Kim Sung
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Post by Kim Sung » 17 Sep 2005 17:25

Kunikov wrote:Fighting at Brest continued well into July.


No, according to some sources, resistance at Brest continued to late November. Five months' resistance, isn't it surprising? :o

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Kunikov
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Post by Kunikov » 17 Sep 2005 17:27

killchola wrote:
Kunikov wrote:Fighting at Brest continued well into July.


No, according to some sources, resistance at Brest continued to late November. Five months' resistance, isn't it surprising? :o


I don't remember it going until November, but if you present some sources, perhaps it did.

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Kim Sung
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Post by Kim Sung » 17 Sep 2005 17:40

Kunikov wrote:
killchola wrote:
Kunikov wrote:Fighting at Brest continued well into July.


No, according to some sources, resistance at Brest continued to late November. Five months' resistance, isn't it surprising? :o


I don't remember it going until November, but if you present some sources, perhaps it did.

I'll post the sources for it tomorrow. It's midnight here, so I must go to bed now. :wink:

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Post by Larry D. » 17 Sep 2005 18:53

Michate wrote:Well, Socialist Realism heroic stories make a nice read, but I can see no proofs to the many claims made in the paragraphe.

Not to mention by German accounts (from 45th Inantry Division) the battle for Brest was over by 30th June, when the garrison surrendered after it had put up a very tough resistance.

Regards


Michate, Jan-Hendrik and Benoit -

All of this Crimean quarry and Fortress Brest stuff is being posted here without sourcing, or at least creditable sourcing. Unless some of these posters can find some believable sources, then I'm going to ignore it. Hopefully, one of the moderators will come along and tell them to provide verifiable sources written by responsible organizations or authorities or shut the F-up. Every English language and German language source that I have ever seen clearly states that the Germans did not repeat did not use poison gas on the battlefield during World War II. As for the quarry story, I want to see some documentation.

--Larry

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Post by Michate » 17 Sep 2005 19:36

Larry D.,

I basically agree to your remarks.

Just to make my point clear, basically I do not regard it impossible gas might have been used under some special circumstances, that is why I asked for proofs from sources in the first instance. And of course I had something different in mind than the stuff presented.

Regards,
Michate

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 17 Sep 2005 20:34

well -just what kind of sources are we looking for? individual accounts? Soviet official reports? what? If for instace the substance that got pumped in there was exaust fumes, or smoke - is it considered to be chemical attack?

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Post by Larry D. » 17 Sep 2005 23:30

Oleg Grigoryev wrote:well -just what kind of sources are we looking for? individual accounts? Soviet official reports? what? If for instace the substance that got pumped in there was exaust fumes, or smoke - is it considered to be chemical attack?


The war gases considered poisonous and proscribed by international law (mustard, Sarin, chlorine and a few others) would have been illegal. Irritant gases (i.e., tear gases, etc.) and smoke shells/bombs would not have been illegal. Had war gases been used, the Soviet government would have gone ballistic, given it wide publicity in the media and demanded an international investigation by the International Red Cross and other bodies. That's the kind of evidence that's needed.

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 18 Sep 2005 00:14

Larry D. wrote:
Oleg Grigoryev wrote:well -just what kind of sources are we looking for? individual accounts? Soviet official reports? what? If for instace the substance that got pumped in there was exaust fumes, or smoke - is it considered to be chemical attack?


The war gases considered poisonous and proscribed by international law (mustard, Sarin, chlorine and a few others) would have been illegal. Irritant gases (i.e., tear gases, etc.) and smoke shells/bombs would not have been illegal. Had war gases been used, the Soviet government would have gone ballistic, given it wide publicity in the media and demanded an international investigation by the International Red Cross and other bodies. That's the kind of evidence that's needed.
So.. your positions that if Red Cross was not called up -then gassing did not happen? Is it your position when it comes to every alleged war crime committed on EF - because by that standard –there will be very few if any. I cannot really recall a single instance when Soviet Government called on Red Cross to verify something. Soviet government had a whole bunch of reasons to go ballistic – and if it feel like calling Red Cross every time there was war crime committed by Germans - Red Cross would reside in German Occupied zone on permanent basis. That I am saying just because there is no red cross report –does not mean it did not happened.

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Kim Sung
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Post by Kim Sung » 18 Sep 2005 06:46

In case of Brest fortress, details on the heroic fightings of red army soldiers were completely ignored and concealed by Stalin regime until Krushchev era because Stalin wanted to conceal his failure in preventing German attack in advance, causing debacle of the red army. So, details of the battle including the use of gas were revealed 15 years later. In this situation, things like Red Cross investigation was already inconceivable. Survivors' accounts were the only evidence on the use of poison gas. What could they do more at the time?


* Stalin also completely ingored and concealed the sacrifice of the famous spy, Richard Sorge because Stalin wanted to conceal his failure in preventing German attack even though Sorge gave information on impending German attack on the Soviet Union.
Last edited by Kim Sung on 18 Sep 2005 07:32, edited 2 times in total.

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Victor
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Post by Victor » 18 Sep 2005 06:53

Since the discussion is moving into the realm of the H&WC section, I see we must borrow from that section's more strict rules:

undocumented claims undercut the research purposes of this section of the forum. Consequently, it is required that proof be posted along with a claim. The main reason is that proof, evidence, facts, etc. improve the quality of discussions and information. A second reason is that inflammatory, groundless threads attack, and do not promote, the scholarly purpose of this section of the forum.


Larry D., please don't use the F-word in here.

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Kim Sung
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Post by Kim Sung » 18 Sep 2005 07:17

In case of Adzhimushkay, when the red army liberated Kerch area in April, 1944, they found huge piles of corpses in quarries. Because scores of survivors from the battle of Adzhimushkay were still imprisoned in German POW camps at the time, details on the battle were not known until the end of the war. Without knowing details of the battle, how could they summon the Red Cross to Adzhimushkay?

Like in case of Brest, survivors' consistent accounts on the use of poison gas are the only evidence. Did they fabricate the story to boast of their ordeal at Adzhimushkay? I don't think so.

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 18 Sep 2005 08:57

Image Lieutenant Trofimenko was one of the defenders – according to his diary gas attack (whatever it was) happened on May 24th 1942 .

it has been 8 hours… gas mask don’t work anymore… they are keeping pumping
I am not going to describe what happened in hospital at central.. the same as here huge number of corpses … this is all hopeless

http://left.ru/2003/13/patrioty89.html


It seems that prevailing onion that C_CI3_NO2 was used (chlorpeckrin –in Russian nomenclature) – not a combat chemical weapon but can be quite deadly non the less.

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Kim Sung
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Post by Kim Sung » 19 Sep 2005 15:33

Does any of you know what happened to 48 survivors of Adzhimushkay? Is anybody among them still living now?

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Post by Jan-Hendrik » 24 Sep 2005 16:28

Still no sources for the mentioned claims ??

Jan-Hendrik

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