Unregistered User
(5/31/00 4:49:29 pm)
Reply Battle of Berlin
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Who many fought in the battle of Berlin?
How many died in the battle?
Mr L L
Unregistered User
(5/31/00 7:40:02 pm)
Reply How many were killed?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...and how many were killed by Russian hordes after the fighting stopoped?
How many women and children were gang-raped by russians and their mongol units?
How many commited suicide because of Russian savagery?
How many were imprisoned and died in ex-nazi KZ Lagers around Berlin run by russians?
Who has the guts to tell the true story about the Last Days of Berlin and the New Beginnings?
L. L.
Marcus Wendel
Administrator
(6/5/00 5:49:22 pm)
Reply Re: How many were killed?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you have any info on the battle of Berlin and/or the aftermath, Mr L.L?
/Marcus
SSOCR
Global user
(6/6/00 2:02:48 am)
Reply Re: Battle of Berlin
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I believe The Last Battle by Cornelius Ryan accurately depics that epic battle. I read it many years ago and will have to re-read it soon.
Bernie SS Officer Computer Research http://members.home.net/ssocr
Edited by SSOCR at: 6/6/00 2:05:21 am
Gribing
Unregistered User
(6/8/00 12:41:23 pm)
Reply Bad and good russians?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In The Last Battle by Cornelius Ryan a Russian soldier says that the first units arriving in Berlin were disciplined and that the inhabitants should be afraid of those who came after. Is this true? Were the first elite units (Combat engineers?) more morally disciplined than the units that followed?/David
Paul
Unregistered User
(6/10/00 2:32:06 pm)
Reply Berlin
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Of course no Russian civilians were ever mistreated
by the Nazi's
Paul
Marcus Wendel
Administrator
(6/10/00 2:46:10 pm)
Reply Re: Berlin
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you mean that the german warcrimes justifies the soviet warcrimes??
btw. Why "Nazi's"? Not all german soldiers were nazis...
/Marcus
Haegg
Global user
(6/10/00 5:53:22 pm)
Reply Not justify..explain
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marcus I don't know what Paul mean but I want to connect to what he and you wrote. I think it's really hard to get people upset when old agressors, executionists and their supportive population turns into vicitms themself. It doesn't justify any criminal action against them but revenge is a strong feeling that goes deep in the human spirit (eye for an eye). Compare the lack of interset for the germans' faith with the lack of interset we today show over serbian och iraqis compared to bosnians and kuwaitian.
Of course this is a simplification. People see shades, not only black and white. I know several couples that took care of german babies after the war for example. On the other hand alot of innocent people get punished too. But the essance is clear. When the perpetrators turns into vicims few people shed tears.
Mr L L
Unregistered User
(6/10/00 7:01:11 pm)
Reply Battle of Berlin
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The original question by Mr. Bo was:
"How many fought in the battle of Berlin?
How many died in the battle?"
It is interesting to see how many visitors to this board are not able to read the original entry, much less comprehend its substance. Not a single reader so far has tried to provide actual numbers, as Bo and I asked.
In the contrary, the thread is being subverted into
"Who did it first" duel.
Mr. L. L.
horesht
Local user
(6/10/00 7:42:41 pm)
Reply Marcus,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi,
You must remember that germany intended to destroy russia/soviet-union ( it doesn't matter as
all serious historical researches are emphasizing the point that Stalin in fact was a russian ultra-
nationalist & not a cosmoplitan-marxist ) and to made from it a giant slaves colony . Hitler talked about
erasing moscow & leningrad and liquidating there whole population , the soviet didn't have a
catagorical attitude of extrimination toward the german & the future proved that .
thank you,
Tamir
Marcus Wendel
Administrator
(6/10/00 7:54:05 pm)
Reply Re: Battle of Berlin
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Soviet forces:
464.000 men
12.700 guns and mortars
1.500 tanks
21.000 Katyuska multiple rocket launchers
(Chronological atlas of World War II)
I've also seen other sources stating that 1.000.000 was awarded to Berlin Medal.
German forces:
60.000 men
50-60 tanks
If I remember correctly, the soviets outnumbered the germans in men 5:1, guns 15:1, tanks 5:1 and planes 3:1.
btw. Mr L.L, you not answered my question.
/Marcus
Marcus Wendel
Administrator
(6/10/00 7:58:58 pm)
Reply Re: Marcus,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Horesht,
Yes, I know that Hitler's plans were evil and that the germans were guilty of warcrimes but this does not make the soviet warcrimes ok.
It should also be noted that 6.000.000 germans were forced out of Eastern Europe after the war...
/Marcus
Mr L L
Unregistered User
(6/10/00 10:09:59 pm)
Reply Mr. L. L.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Mr. Wendel,
Thank you for your basic statistics.
A small fact overlooked in the responses is that Stalin's nationality was no Russian.
As to your question to me - I was contemplating your reason for it. In context of this particular conversation the answer is "No."
L. L.
Marcus Wendel
Administrator
(6/10/00 10:39:39 pm)
Reply Re: Mr. L. L.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The reason for my asking was what you wrote:
"Who has the guts to tell the true story"
I was not sure if you meant that you had info but wanted to see if anyone else posted the "true story" or if you did not know any details but wanted to see if anyone would reply with some sort of pro-soviet propaganda.
/Marcus
Mr L L
Unregistered User
(6/11/00 3:51:43 am)
Reply Ryan's Berlin
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Mr. Wendel,
You have an excellent sense of observation. You may have a bit of truth is your statements. To refresh our memories, let us read an article about Ryan's book:
http://www.systems.org/HTML/signals/vol ... r-rape.htm
As for Russian historical factuality, I have not heard from a single Russian about Rape of Eastern Europe and Berlin. As a mater of fact I never met a Russian who took part in assault on Berlin. They were always somewhere else. I wonder who is wearing the 1,082,000 "Berlin Medals".
L. L.
Marcus Wendel
Administrator
(6/11/00 11:52:51 am)
Reply Re: Ryan's Berlin
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Interesting link.
I've quoted some info I found on the site:
Cornelius [Ryan] found little quantitative data about the rapes that occurred, but the interviews included the following information:
The rapes began as areas of the city were overrun by the Russian troops and continued for a period of approxiametly four weeks;
Women of all ages were assaulted;
Many women were gang raped;
Many were raped again and again on succesive days for weeks;
Medical experts estimated the total number of rapes at between 20,000 and 100,000;
The most accurate measure was the increase in the suicide rate for which authorities continued to maintain the records even through the battle. "In the Pankow district alone, 215 suicides were recorded within three weeks, most of them women."
[Note: Berlin was composed of twenty districts in 1945]
btw. Are there any good books on the battle of Berlin appart from Cornelius Ryan's "The Last Battle"?
/Marcus
horesht
Local user
(6/11/00 3:55:41 pm)
Reply Re: Mr. L. L.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marcus,
Tell him ( because I don't want any contact with this racist vermin ) that neither Hitler was a 'real'
so-called aryian in fact he came from a place known as the "graveyard of europe" , Napoleon wasn't a
'real french' , Alexander wasn't a 'real greek' & even your king is not a 'real swedish' ,
this point stand between those who want to study history & those who are hate-mongers like MR LL .
Tamir
Howard
Unregistered User
(6/11/00 5:07:49 pm)
Reply Re: Mr. L. L.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just ignore him!
Paul Timms
Unregistered User
(6/11/00 8:07:15 pm)
Reply Berlin
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No i did not mean German war crimes justify those of the Soviets . However i feel less sympathy for the aggressor. These forums are full of people who trumpet on about Allied terror bombing , Russian atrocites whilst forgetting that Gemany started the war. Mr LL is a classic example of this . On Jason P's forum he suggested Goring was a war hero who did not deserve execution. Convienientlty forgetting his role in Dachau experiments,slave labour,the Gestapo etc etc.
Rant over
Paul
Gerard
Unregistered User
(6/15/00 2:59:37 pm)
Reply Books on Berlin
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are a number of Books on the History of Berlin but I have found the best to be "The Fall of Berlin" by Anthony Read (I think). The book starts with the Berlin Oympics and gooes right through to the fall of the city in April 1945. It deals quite accurately with the Allied Bombing and the final battle.
Heinz Guderian's "Panzer Leader" and Albert Speer's "Inside the Third Reich" are also books which detail this battle and the lunacy involved in the German High Command. Although both books should not be taken at face value as both are memoirs, which are inevitabley tainted.
Sadly Gotthard Heinrici,who was the Commander of Army Group Vistula, never had his memoirs published. Indeed I belive that Frank Cass Publishing have the rights to publish these but have not done so to date or seem to have any release date for them. This is a pity as Heinrici was responsible for the holding of Zhukov's army group at the Seelow Heights. Indeed if anyone has any info on this general I'd be grateful as he is one of my favourites and unfortunatelf the least well known.
The Last days of Hitler by Hugh Trevor-Roper and The Berlin Bunker by Peter O'Donnell are two other books which deal with the fighting around the Chancellory and Central Districts of Berlin.
One interesting point on the subject of Russian atrocities in Berlin. I have read before that Russian Front Line troops were generally professional towards the German Civilians. However The russians as they liberated their homeland and Eastern Europe, repatriated and conscripted men who had suffered under the Nazis and placed them in rear echelon units. Most of the incidents were reputed to have been committed by these troops, not the Russian veterans.
Marcus Wendel
Administrator
(6/26/00 4:41:31 pm)
Reply Interview: The Bitter Battle for Berlin
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I found this interview with Major Siegfried Knappe on this interview about his experience during the battle of Berlin:
"One German soldier who fought during the battle for Berlin was Siegfried Knappe. At the time of the battle, he was a major and the operations officer of the LVI Panzer Corps. Knappe, along with Ted Brusaw, has recently written Soldat, a book on his experiences in the German army from 1936 to 1949."
http://www.thehistorynet.com/WorldWarII ... _cover.htm
Battle of Berlin
-
Ezboard
Than
Unregistered User
(7/23/00 8:55:10 am)
Reply books on berlin battle
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By far the best book about the berlin battle is theodor plievier's "Berlin", the third of serie of novels about the war in the EAST.
Moskau
Stalingrad
Berlin
Tremendous novel, even at a high artistic level.
Herb
Goggi
Registered User
Posts: 19
(9/24/00 12:28:48 am)
Reply Battle of Berlin
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is an excellent book to this subject " Soviet Casualities and Combat Losses in the Twentieth Century" by Colonel-General G.F. Krivosheev, published 1997 by Greenhill Books, London. ISBN 1 - 85367 - 280 - 7 . The Berlin Strategic Offensive: The operation was conducted by the 1st and
2nd Byelorussian and 1st Ukrainian Fronts, the Dnieper Flotilla, part of the Baltic Fleet and the 1st
and 2nd Polish Armies took also part in the oeration. In addition the 28th and 31th armies, each with nine rifle divisions, were brought in during the operation.
The second Byelorussian Front( minus 5th Guards tank army and 19th army) consisted of 33 rifle dvisions, 3 cavalry div., 3 tank corps, 1 mechanized corps, 1 tank brigade, 1 self propelled artillery brigade a total of 441,6oo men.
The first Byelorussian Front consisted of 72 rifle divisions, 6 cavalry div., 5 tank corps, 2 mechanized corps, 6 ind.tank brigades, 2 fortified areas, 2 self propelled artillery brigades, a total of 908,500 men.
The first Ukrainian 44 rifle Div., 3 cavlry div., 5 tank corps, 4 mechanized corps, 2 ind. tank brigades, 3 self propelled artillery brigades, a total of 550,900 men.
The Dnieper Flotilla with 5,2oo men.
Russians: Total men 1,906,200 participated, Dead 78,291,wounded 274,184
1st and 2nd Polish armies: 155,900 participated, dead 2,825, wounded 6067
GHD
Unregistered User
(9/24/00 6:22:05 am)
Reply Re: how many killed in Battle of Berlin
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bo,
These are the figures according to "When Titans Clashed" by David Glance and Jonathan House
Red Army losses (16 April - 8 May 1945)
KIA or MIA - 81,116
Wounded - 280,251
The Wehrmact losses were only broken down from Dec '44 to May '45. It was a total of 2,000,000 men dead, missing or disabled. It was also noted in the book that 46% of 1939 male population of Germany was killed or wounded during the war. Note that this doesn't specify the 1939 male population of military age. Just male population in general. I assume that includes newborns as well as the aged. Very sobering statistic. It also gave the figures for German POWs in USSR. There were a total of 2,389,000. Of those 450,600 died in captivity.
roberto muehlenkamp
Unregistered User
(9/25/00 4:13:49 pm)
Reply nazi atrocities in russia
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Assuming that whoever stated that
"Of course no Russian civilians were ever mistreated
by the Nazi's"
is not a neonazi revisionist, only misinformed, I suggest that this person take a look at the following
sites:
http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/massacres.html
users.erols.com/mwhite28/ww2-loss.htm
http://www.infoukes.com/history/ww2/
http://chomsky.arts.adelaide.edu.au/per ... ndSee.html
www2.hawaii.edu/~rummel/NAZIS.CHAP1.HTM
http://www.gendercide.org/case_soviet.html
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?f ... ID+by0020)
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Holoca ... tztoc.html
http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/WW2res.htm
Roberto
Marcus Wendel
ezOP
Posts: 534
(9/25/00 4:19:23 pm)
Reply Re: nazi atrocities in russia
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
He was most likley being sarcastic, he also seems to think that the the fact that Germans were guilty of warcrimes makes it ok to commit warcrimes against Germans.
/Marcus
roberto muehlenkamp
Unregistered User
(9/25/00 6:36:40 pm)
Reply nazi atrocities in russia
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You're right, I probably missed the sarcasm and took the statement literally. From a historian's point of
view, an aggressor's atrocities may look worse than an avenger's, but for the victims of either there is no difference between one and the other. Anyway, it is amazing how little is actually known about atrocities committed by one or the other side. Maybe this website can do something to change that. I'll be glad to offer my contribution.
Roberto
Marcus Wendel
ezOP
Posts: 536
(9/25/00 6:40:54 pm)
Reply Re: nazi atrocities in russia
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roberto,
I'm always interested in more material for the site.
Please contact me by e-mail and let me know what you have in mind.
/Marcus
[email protected]
Goggi
Registered User
Posts: 21
(9/28/00 5:29:04 am)
Reply Battle of Berlin
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roberto,
Take a look at my input to the board "World War I - Comments - Young Communist" about the Russian atrocities to the Polish people. There is a brand new Book by a Polish Historian covering the events!
Goggi
Marcus Wendel
ezOP
Posts: 548
(9/28/00 8:54:26 am)
Reply Boards
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Goggi,
It would prehaps be more correct to call that boart History Board since it open for discussions on all aspects of our history.
It is at pub11.ezboard.com/bskalmanmessageforum for those you don't know.
I also have a board for discussion on the USSR: pub19.ezboard.com/bussr
Iit is a part of the Soviet Union Factbook at http://www.skalman.nu/soviet/
/Marcus
julianpererahotmailcom
Unregistered User
(10/30/00 10:51:27 am)
Reply russians atrocities in berlin and vienna
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi
im interested in reading about russian atrocities in berlin and vienna towards the end of the war
can u guys send em some links to the relevant websites
please email me to
[email protected]
Julian
Ben
Unregistered
(11/25/00 9:18:40 pm)
Reply The battle of Berlin
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Read the book by Anthony Read and David Fisher. It improves on Cornelius Ryan`s Classic, by providing a fascinating social history of wartime Berlin, complete with extraordinary detail on life and leisure in the German capital.
Also did the German commited rape in the Soviet Union? and how many?
Regards.
Andy Hill
Unregistered
(11/26/00 11:16:00 am)
Reply Battle for Berlin
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Try Tony Le Tissier's book, "The Battle of Berlin 1945" published by Johnathan Cape.
Wiederstand
New Member
Posts: 3
(12/23/00 9:27:58 pm)
Reply Re: Battle for Berlin
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Regarding losses during the Battle of Berlin, one of my most somber journeys while travelling in Germany was to locate my grandfathers grave near Berlin. Just outside of Berlin is Waldfriedhof Halbe. One of the largest, if not the largest German WW2 cemetery inside Germany. There are over 20,000 buried with most in mass graves ranging from 30 to 150 unknown soldiers. It did not receive adequate upkeep from the DDR and only survived through the work of a local pastor. A visit here will put things into perspective for anyone who finds glory in war.
Unregistered User
(7/23/00 8:55:10 am)
Reply books on berlin battle
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By far the best book about the berlin battle is theodor plievier's "Berlin", the third of serie of novels about the war in the EAST.
Moskau
Stalingrad
Berlin
Tremendous novel, even at a high artistic level.
Herb
Goggi
Registered User
Posts: 19
(9/24/00 12:28:48 am)
Reply Battle of Berlin
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is an excellent book to this subject " Soviet Casualities and Combat Losses in the Twentieth Century" by Colonel-General G.F. Krivosheev, published 1997 by Greenhill Books, London. ISBN 1 - 85367 - 280 - 7 . The Berlin Strategic Offensive: The operation was conducted by the 1st and
2nd Byelorussian and 1st Ukrainian Fronts, the Dnieper Flotilla, part of the Baltic Fleet and the 1st
and 2nd Polish Armies took also part in the oeration. In addition the 28th and 31th armies, each with nine rifle divisions, were brought in during the operation.
The second Byelorussian Front( minus 5th Guards tank army and 19th army) consisted of 33 rifle dvisions, 3 cavalry div., 3 tank corps, 1 mechanized corps, 1 tank brigade, 1 self propelled artillery brigade a total of 441,6oo men.
The first Byelorussian Front consisted of 72 rifle divisions, 6 cavalry div., 5 tank corps, 2 mechanized corps, 6 ind.tank brigades, 2 fortified areas, 2 self propelled artillery brigades, a total of 908,500 men.
The first Ukrainian 44 rifle Div., 3 cavlry div., 5 tank corps, 4 mechanized corps, 2 ind. tank brigades, 3 self propelled artillery brigades, a total of 550,900 men.
The Dnieper Flotilla with 5,2oo men.
Russians: Total men 1,906,200 participated, Dead 78,291,wounded 274,184
1st and 2nd Polish armies: 155,900 participated, dead 2,825, wounded 6067
GHD
Unregistered User
(9/24/00 6:22:05 am)
Reply Re: how many killed in Battle of Berlin
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bo,
These are the figures according to "When Titans Clashed" by David Glance and Jonathan House
Red Army losses (16 April - 8 May 1945)
KIA or MIA - 81,116
Wounded - 280,251
The Wehrmact losses were only broken down from Dec '44 to May '45. It was a total of 2,000,000 men dead, missing or disabled. It was also noted in the book that 46% of 1939 male population of Germany was killed or wounded during the war. Note that this doesn't specify the 1939 male population of military age. Just male population in general. I assume that includes newborns as well as the aged. Very sobering statistic. It also gave the figures for German POWs in USSR. There were a total of 2,389,000. Of those 450,600 died in captivity.
roberto muehlenkamp
Unregistered User
(9/25/00 4:13:49 pm)
Reply nazi atrocities in russia
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Assuming that whoever stated that
"Of course no Russian civilians were ever mistreated
by the Nazi's"
is not a neonazi revisionist, only misinformed, I suggest that this person take a look at the following
sites:
http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/massacres.html
users.erols.com/mwhite28/ww2-loss.htm
http://www.infoukes.com/history/ww2/
http://chomsky.arts.adelaide.edu.au/per ... ndSee.html
www2.hawaii.edu/~rummel/NAZIS.CHAP1.HTM
http://www.gendercide.org/case_soviet.html
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?f ... ID+by0020)
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Holoca ... tztoc.html
http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/WW2res.htm
Roberto
Marcus Wendel
ezOP
Posts: 534
(9/25/00 4:19:23 pm)
Reply Re: nazi atrocities in russia
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
He was most likley being sarcastic, he also seems to think that the the fact that Germans were guilty of warcrimes makes it ok to commit warcrimes against Germans.
/Marcus
roberto muehlenkamp
Unregistered User
(9/25/00 6:36:40 pm)
Reply nazi atrocities in russia
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You're right, I probably missed the sarcasm and took the statement literally. From a historian's point of
view, an aggressor's atrocities may look worse than an avenger's, but for the victims of either there is no difference between one and the other. Anyway, it is amazing how little is actually known about atrocities committed by one or the other side. Maybe this website can do something to change that. I'll be glad to offer my contribution.
Roberto
Marcus Wendel
ezOP
Posts: 536
(9/25/00 6:40:54 pm)
Reply Re: nazi atrocities in russia
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roberto,
I'm always interested in more material for the site.
Please contact me by e-mail and let me know what you have in mind.
/Marcus
[email protected]
Goggi
Registered User
Posts: 21
(9/28/00 5:29:04 am)
Reply Battle of Berlin
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roberto,
Take a look at my input to the board "World War I - Comments - Young Communist" about the Russian atrocities to the Polish people. There is a brand new Book by a Polish Historian covering the events!
Goggi
Marcus Wendel
ezOP
Posts: 548
(9/28/00 8:54:26 am)
Reply Boards
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Goggi,
It would prehaps be more correct to call that boart History Board since it open for discussions on all aspects of our history.
It is at pub11.ezboard.com/bskalmanmessageforum for those you don't know.
I also have a board for discussion on the USSR: pub19.ezboard.com/bussr
Iit is a part of the Soviet Union Factbook at http://www.skalman.nu/soviet/
/Marcus
julianpererahotmailcom
Unregistered User
(10/30/00 10:51:27 am)
Reply russians atrocities in berlin and vienna
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi
im interested in reading about russian atrocities in berlin and vienna towards the end of the war
can u guys send em some links to the relevant websites
please email me to
[email protected]
Julian
Ben
Unregistered
(11/25/00 9:18:40 pm)
Reply The battle of Berlin
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Read the book by Anthony Read and David Fisher. It improves on Cornelius Ryan`s Classic, by providing a fascinating social history of wartime Berlin, complete with extraordinary detail on life and leisure in the German capital.
Also did the German commited rape in the Soviet Union? and how many?
Regards.
Andy Hill
Unregistered
(11/26/00 11:16:00 am)
Reply Battle for Berlin
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Try Tony Le Tissier's book, "The Battle of Berlin 1945" published by Johnathan Cape.
Wiederstand
New Member
Posts: 3
(12/23/00 9:27:58 pm)
Reply Re: Battle for Berlin
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Regarding losses during the Battle of Berlin, one of my most somber journeys while travelling in Germany was to locate my grandfathers grave near Berlin. Just outside of Berlin is Waldfriedhof Halbe. One of the largest, if not the largest German WW2 cemetery inside Germany. There are over 20,000 buried with most in mass graves ranging from 30 to 150 unknown soldiers. It did not receive adequate upkeep from the DDR and only survived through the work of a local pastor. A visit here will put things into perspective for anyone who finds glory in war.