Soviet vs. German losses in WWII

[Kunikov]

Finland: Killed 86,400

The Finnish Defense Forces have an online database of KIA 1939-45 which appears to contain 94,000 records (http://www.mil.fi/tietokannat/index.dsp).

This includes the Winter War, Continuation War, and Lappland War. Most figures I have seen for the winter war hover between 20-25,000 KIA for the Finns. Say it is 20,000. That means the Krivosheev figure is out by almost 20%.

All the best

Andreas

Again, that number might also include died of Wounds.

[Andreas]

But you admit those numbers aren't for all Romanian operations.

I had a longer post written, detailing all the operations that were included, but Netscape ate it, and I could not be bothered to redo it. It includes pretty much everything except for Iassy, but most importantly all the big ones (32k at Odessa, 20k on the Crimea including Sevastopol, 25k in the defense of Crimea). Since the Germans only managed ca. 150,000 KIA during Iassy, I somehow doubt the Romanians managed 500,000.

Well I don't have a problem with you subtracting POW's, why is it a problem for you?

Because it makes the analysis meaningless. For the war effort it did not matter whether the MIA returned in 1946, or whether he got killed in 1943. All that matters is the number of guys you have left after the battle, and how many of the wounded return.

So for the Soviets the number of 11.4m is relevant, while for the Germans it would be 4.5m, plus their allies (let's be generous and say 750,000 irrecoverable) plus maybe Hiwis, although I am not sure if these would have been counted or not - I guess not.

In any case, you end up somewhere around 2:1.

Again, that number might also include died of Wounds.

It might include any number of things, as does the number from the Finnish Defense Forces. I don't know. Until someone comes along explaining it, I work on the assumption that they are talking of the same thing, and that Krivosheev is inflated.

All the best

Andreas

[Dmitry]

From Krivosheev:
http://www.rus-sky.org/history/library/ ... Toc2489830
German's satellites loses (tab 200):

KIA+POW (KIA)

Hungary 809,066 (295,300 KIA) included conscripts from Transilvania, S.Slovakia, Zakarpatskaya Ukraine.
Italy 92,867 (43,910 KIA)
Romania 475,070 (245,388 KIA) included moldavians
Finland 84,377 (82,000 KIA)
Slovakia 6,765 (1,565 KIA)

Total 1,468,145 (668,163 KIA)

In the text it said that numbers for Hungary and Romania were get in 1988 from the General Staffs of these countries.

[Kunikov]

From Krivosheev:
http://www.rus-sky.org/history/library/ ... Toc2489830
German's satellites loses (tab 200):

KIA+POW (KIA)

Hungary 809,066 (295,300 KIA) included conscripts from Transilvania, S.Slovakia, Zakarpatskaya Ukraine.
Italy 92,867 (43,910 KIA)
Romania 475,070 (245,388 KIA) included moldavians
Finland 84,377 (82,000 KIA)
Slovakia 6,765 (1,565 KIA)

Total 1,468,145 (668,163 KIA)

In the text it said that numbers for Hungary and Romania were get in 1988 from the General Staffs of these countries.

This is from the second edition, I assume, hopefully these numbers seem 'correct.'

[Kunikov]

Because it makes the analysis meaningless. For the war effort it did not matter whether the MIA returned in 1946, or whether he got killed in 1943. All that matters is the number of guys you have left after the battle, and how many of the wounded return.

We're not talking about the war effort though, we're talking about hindsight and how much damage was done by each side.

So for the Soviets the number of 11.4m is relevant, while for the Germans it would be 4.5m, plus their allies (let's be generous and say 750,000 irrecoverable) plus maybe Hiwis, although I am not sure if these would have been counted or not - I guess not.

In any case, you end up somewhere around 2:1.

11.4m would include those wrongly labeled as POW's, for one, and again I don't agree to include POW's. I'd also like to point out that around 250,000-300,000 Soviets served in the Waffen SS, and hundreds of thousands more in the Heer, those casualties we'll never know for sure.

[Andreas]

We're not talking about the war effort though, we're talking about hindsight and how much damage was done by each side.

Which is why I said the analysis does not make sense to me. The 'damage done' includes military casualties on the battlefield and those murdered or worked to death in POW camps. What's the point?

11.4m would include those wrongly labeled as POW's, for one, and again I don't agree to include POW's. I'd also like to point out that around 250,000-300,000 Soviets served in the Waffen SS, and hundreds of thousands more in the Heer, those casualties we'll never know for sure.

If they served as proper soldiers in proper formations (e.g. 14th SS, or all those Baltic formations), they will be accounted for in the Heer/Waffen SS loss numbers I believe. Hiwis are a different story.

But substract 1m for the Soviets, add a few hundred thousand for the Germans, you still end up somewhere around 2:1.

All the best

Andreas

[Andreas]

From Krivosheev:
http://www.rus-sky.org/history/library/ ... Toc2489830
German's satellites loses (tab 200):

KIA+POW (KIA)

Hungary 809,066 (295,300 KIA) included conscripts from Transilvania, S.Slovakia, Zakarpatskaya Ukraine.
Italy 92,867 (43,910 KIA)
Romania 475,070 (245,388 KIA) included moldavians
Finland 84,377 (82,000 KIA)
Slovakia 6,765 (1,565 KIA)

Total 1,468,145 (668,163 KIA)

In the text it said that numbers for Hungary and Romania were get in 1988 from the General Staffs of these countries.

Thanks for that. Especially good to see that the Romanian and Hungarian numbers are based on data from the respective countries. I am still having trouble with the Finnish number though, but that is just not particularly relevant if the big numbers are correct.

All the best

Andreas

[Kunikov]

Which is why I said the analysis does not make sense to me. The 'damage done' includes military casualties on the battlefield and those murdered or worked to death in POW camps. What's the point?

Again, I am only counting irrecoverable losses aside from POW's.

[Dmitry]

This is from the second edition, I assume, hopefully these numbers seem 'correct.'

The Krivosheev book dedicated mainly to the Soviet loses and his team has access to necessary materials for this research. It has only one small chapter for ww2 enemies. In regards to enemy POWs and former Soviet block countries loses it most likely correct. But he notes that MH and other German sources is too shadow especially on last period. BTW Krivosheev appeals also to FRG law about "saving graveyards". According to it there are 3,226,000 German soldiers (born in Germany within the 1937 borders) buried in USSR and East Europe.

[Kunikov]

This is from the second edition, I assume, hopefully these numbers seem 'correct.'

The Krivosheev book dedicated mainly to the Soviet loses and his team has access to necessary materials for this research. It has only one small chapter for ww2 enemies. In regards to enemy POWs and former Soviet block countries loses it most likely correct. But he notes that MH and other German sources is too shadow especially on last period. BTW Krivosheev appeals also to FRG law about "saving graveyards". According to it there are 3,226,000 German soldiers (born in Germany within the 1937 borders) buried in USSR and East Europe.

Well yes, I have the first edition, in English, and he more or less has the same 'style' small 'chapter' on the losses of the Germans and their allies. He does also mention the various numbers for the last few months of the war vary from one source to another.

[Andreas]

Again, I am only counting irrecoverable losses aside from POW's.

I doubt that number exists for both sides. At least for the Germans it does not appear to, judging from MH, due to the way POW were released without proper administration. I would be surprised if the German book-keeping of their Soviet POWs would yield that number too. You can count the returned POW, or those mistakenly taken, that leaves you with MIA presumed dead, but it still does not tell you whether an MIA that is left got killed on the battlefield or starved to death in a camp.

All the best

Andreas

[Kunikov]

Again, I am only counting irrecoverable losses aside from POW's.

I doubt that number exists for both sides. At least for the Germans it does not appear to, judging from MH, due to the way POW were released without proper administration. I would be surprised if the German book-keeping of their Soviet POWs would yield that number too. You can count the returned POW, or those mistakenly taken, that leaves you with MIA presumed dead, but it still does not tell you whether an MIA that is left got killed on the battlefield or starved to death in a camp.

All the best

Andreas

I agree that isn't something that can be so easily researched, but the whole point I wanted to make with the thread is that Soviet losses shouldn't be overestimated in ratios to their German counterparts in WWII. But, truthfully, 1941 (the greatest losses for the Red Army) in and of itself if you study it is more an example of Soviet mistakes and misjudgements, among a plethora of other reasons, rather than the triumph of German military might and ingenuity.

[Victor]

From Krivosheev:
http://www.rus-sky.org/history/library/ ... Toc2489830
German's satellites loses (tab 200):

KIA+POW (KIA)

[...]
Romania 475,070 (245,388 KIA) included moldavians
[...]

Total 1,468,145 (668,163 KIA)

In the text it said that numbers for Hungary and Romania were get in 1988 from the General Staffs of these countries.

I seriously doubt the figure given by Krivosheev for they Romanian Army, simply because all figures published in Romanian sources are different from it.

Between 22 June 1941 and 12 September 1944:
1. Killed: 3,113 officers, 1,823 NCOs and 66,649 soldiers, in total 71,585
2. Wounded: 8,359 officers, 4,983 NCOs and 230,280 soldiers, in total 243,622
3. Missing: 6,042 officers, 5,470 NCOs and 297,821 soldiers, in total 309,333*
Grand Total: 624,740

*Note: in the missing personnel total are included also between 97,732 and 130,000 men taken prisoners by the Red Army after 24 August 1944, when Romania was already fighting against German and Hungarian forces, i.e. on the Soviet side.

If you add the KIA and MIA numbers (even using the MIA number including those taken when not fighting against the USSR anymore) you still don't reach 475,000.

Edit: A confidential note of the Romanian Commission for the Enforcing of the Armistice stated that before 23 August 1944, the number of MIAs in the operations on the Eastern Front was 163,015 (3,468 officers, 3,241 NCOs and 156,306 soldiers).

[Deine-Zukunft]

Finnish casualties at the home front included 826 killed and 1538 wounded by enemy air activity. Finnish field army lost 22849 men killed or missed in action and 43557 wounded, of which nearly 10000 permanently disabled. Official Soviet estimates show 230000 total casualties, but for example German Wehrmacht studies the following year(41) reckoned 273000 dead and 800000 wounded. This would raise the total casualties 5 times higher, over a million. Even Hrutshev himself has said that "I’d say we lost as many as million lives" when referring to Winter War in his memoirs.



Finnish casualties in continuation war 52 554 dead
wounded 161 217


red army
karelian front: dead 220 621 wounded 437415 altogether 658 036
Leningrad front dead 467 524 wounded 1 287 373 altogether 1 754 897
Fronts alltogether 2 412 933

It would alltogether 888 145 casualties in winter war and continuation war combined.And im quite sure that there are wounded who later died to their injuries.And i dont even know what is the number in northern front.Maybe not so big cause of germans.But that thing is sure that soviet losses are over million because of finns and finnish losses 1939-1944 against red army are 75 403 dead.

It is very crazy to even think that so little country as Finland back in the 1939(population only 3,5 million)could even defense its territory 2 days.


Finnish losses against Soviet-Union 1939-1944 75 403 dead
Soviet losses against Finland 1939-1944 Over 1 million dead

1 finnish soldier matched against 14 russian soldiers


http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuva:Pariisin_rauha.png

[Kunikov]

Leningrad front did not only face Finnish forces. Also, where did you get these numbers from?
Some of the operations that can be counted are as follows:
Polyarnoe/Karelia defensive operation 29 June-10 October 1941
KIA 67,265 Medical Casualties (MC from now on) 68,448
Leningrad defensive operation 10 July - 30 Sept. 1941
KIA 214,078 MC 130,848
Tikhvin Offensive Operation 10 Nov- 30 Dec 1941
KIA 17,924 MC 30,977
Leningrad de-blockading operation "ISKRA' 12-30 Jan 1943
KIA 33,940 MC 81,142
Leningrad-Novgorod Offensive operation 14 Jan-1 Marc 1944
KIA 76,686 MC 237,267
Vyborg-Petrozavodsk offensive operation 10 June - 9 Aug 1944
KIA 32,674 MC 72,701
Petsamo-Kirkenes offensive operation 7-29 Oct. 1944
KIA 6,048 MC 15,149

total KIA 448,615
the only other operation that might come into this as well is Baltic offensive operation, but that was mostly against Germans not Finns, KIA there was 61,468, from 14 sept -24 Nov 1944. And again, the Leningrad deblockading, the Leningrad defense, and Tikhvin operation were against German soldiers as well, so your math is off and so is your ratio.