Stalin line

[tigre]

Thanks andreas, fully appreciated. Cheers. Raúl M .

[DavidFrankenberg]

Excellent detailed map of the Stalin / Molotov Line from "The Stalin Line:
Fortification of the USSR’s Western Border" By Ivan Volkov & Evgeny Khitryak, World at War Magazine april-may 2012 p.32 http://www.worldatwarmagazine.com/waw/w ... rticle.pdf
Good article !

In 1940 the Stalin line was moved to the Molotov Line. Molotov Line was not achieved th 22 june 1941. When the Germans arrived at the Stalin Line by july, the Line was reinforced and manned. That's why, despite being deserted in 1940 by the soviets, the Stalin Line still offered quite a good resistance to the Germans in july 41.

[Max Payload]

, the Stalin Line still offered quite a good resistance to the Germans in july 41.

Only at Odessa and, against a greatly weakened German Eighteenth Army, at Narva. But otherwise, as a 1930s frontier defence line, it did little to impede the Wehrmacht in 1941. (Kiev, Korosten and Mozyr, where the Germans were held up, could hardly have been considered part of a 1930s frontier defence line - they were rear area fortified zones - not part of what I imagined the Stalin Line to be.)

[DavidFrankenberg]

In the north, the line was emptied in 1940. Sometimes i have read there was nothing in the Stalin Line, and sometimes you can read there was some resistance there. That's confusing. Indeed it was not a complete line like Maginot Line, it was just some big fortifications put there end there where the invaders are supposed to pass. Between 22-06-1941 and july, Soviets succeeded in rearming a bit some fortifications on the northern part of the line.
That's why there were some resistance on the Line in july 1941. For sure the resistance would have been far better without the 1940 disarmament.
Do we have some precise examples of german forces being delayed by the Stalin Line in july 1941 ? Especially Polosk Pskov Kingsiepp ? If i dont mistake, i think Kingsiepp was very hard to pass through. The Germans launched offensive the 8 of august, and finished with the 16. That meant 8 days of combat. The attack of Kingsiepp fortification was part of the attack on the Luga line, here http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/the- ... mber-1941/ we can read this comment :

The remnants of the Luga Operational Group contained 9 divisions (including a tank division): the fact that the average division was down to regimental strength (around 3 300 men each) is an indication of the fierce fighting in this sector

In the south the Stalin Line was not disarmed in 1940. That's why Axis forces encounter better resistance. As you said in Odessa. [EDIT : i have just checked the map, and the Odessa's fortifications were built in 1940-1, following the conquest of Poland and of Bessarabia].
But also elsewhere :
The romanian 3rd army was blocked 3 days by the Stalin Line around Serebria (they dont cite the name of the Stalin Line's fortification) http://www.worldwar2.ro/operatii/?article=6
The 101 jäger division was also stopped 3 days on the Stalin Line viewtopic.php?f=55&t=87420&start=15#p871581
Some wd say 3 days' delay is not much, but some wd say it's not so bad too.

Here is a book on the Stalin Line : Neil Short, The Stalin and Molotov Lines SOVIET WESTERN DEFENCES 1928–41, 2008 https://ospreypublishing.com/the-stalin ... otov-lines Could anyone tell how useful it is ?

[Max Payload]

In the north ... i think Kingsiepp was very hard to pass through. The Germans launched offensive the 8 of august, and finished with the 16. That meant 8 days of combat. The attack of Kingsiepp fortification was part of the attack on the Luga line ...
In the south the Stalin Line was not disarmed in 1940. That's why Axis forces encounter better resistance. ... The romanian 3rd army was blocked 3 days by the Stalin Line around Serebria ... The 101 jäger division was also stopped 3 days on the Stalin Line ...

The Kingisepp Fortified Region was configured to defend against an attack across the Narva from the west (Estonia), not across the Luga from the south. The Luga Line was not part of the original Stalin Line.
As for the Stalin Line on the Dnieper north of Odessa, a three day delay was meagre reward for the time, effort and resources put into it. And west of Zhitomir the Stalin Line defences didn't slow 11th Panzer Division's advance on Berdichev at all.

[DavidFrankenberg]

I have found the reason of the problems encountered by the 3rd Romanian Army in Serebrya area, i found it in the article i have already mentionned : Ivan Volkov & Evgeny Khitryak, "The Stalin Line:
Fortification of the USSR’s Western Border" By World at War Magazine april-may 2012 p.40 http://www.worldatwarmagazine.com/waw/w ... rticle.pdf

Some complexes consisted of
several bunkers and auxiliary constructions
connected with underground
tunnels. They were termed “Mina”
(mines), and only some of the fortified
regions had them. The Serebrya Mina,
in the Mogilev-Yampol region, was
the largest of such complexes erected
on the western border of the USSR. It
consisted of two double-embrasure
artillery half-caponiers, two doubleembrasure
machinegun bunkers,
two entrance blocks, underground
galleries, a command post, quarters
for the garrison, a power-plant and an
ammunition magazine. The length of
the underground communication tunnels
totaled 986 yards (901 meters), and
they were located six to 10 yards below
the surface. The concrete thickness of
the front wall was 59 inches while that
of the roof was 54 inches. The garrison
numbered 150

In the north ... i think Kingsiepp was very hard to pass through. The Germans launched offensive the 8 of august, and finished with the 16. That meant 8 days of combat. The attack of Kingsiepp fortification was part of the attack on the Luga line ...
In the south the Stalin Line was not disarmed in 1940. That's why Axis forces encounter better resistance. ... The romanian 3rd army was blocked 3 days by the Stalin Line around Serebria ... The 101 jäger division was also stopped 3 days on the Stalin Line ...

The Kingisepp Fortified Region was configured to defend against an attack across the Narva from the west (Estonia), not across the Luga from the south.

I thought Germans came from the west. I didnt figure they came from south indeed.

The Luga Line was not part of the original Stalin Line.

You are right. Have you got any details concerning that Luga Line ? It seemed to have given bad time to the Germans. Since it was not part of the original Stalin Line, when was it built ?

Here is a thread dealing with the Luga Line /viewtopic.php?t=225800

As for the Stalin Line on the Dnieper north of Odessa, a three day delay was meagre reward for the time, effort and resources put into it.

I guess you are right, but what if the Germans arrived in front of Moscow 3 days earlier ?

And west of Zhitomir the Stalin Line defences didn't slow 11th Panzer Division's advance on Berdichev at all.

Do you have some details concerning that please ? Were the defences empty ? Was the 11th Pz such in a good shape to do it ?
You seem to be very well informed Max.

[Max Payload]

I thought Germans came from the west. I didnt figure they came from south indeed. ...
Have you got any details concerning that Luga Line ? It seemed to have given bad time to the Germans. Since it was not part of the original Stalin Line, when was it built ?

And west of Zhitomir the Stalin Line defences didn't slow 11th Panzer Division's advance on Berdichev at all.

Do you have some details concerning that please ? Were the defences empty ? Was the 11th Pz such in a good shape to do it ? :

Ostrov, part of the Stalin Line, was taken by Fourth Panzer Group on 4 July (on day thirteen of Barbarossa after an advance of more than 400km). Pskov, further north and also part of the Stalin Line, was taken four days later. From the Ostrov/Pskov sector the panzer group advanced north and northeast towards the Luga and Lake Ilmen. Hence 'they came from the south'.
The Luga Line was not 'built' as such. It was a hurriedly prepared set of defensive positions along the river line made in response to the rapid advance of Fourth Panzer Group towards Leningrad. However, by the time the Germans had reached the Luga their supply situation had become critical and they were unable to breach Leningrad Front's defences there until mid-August.
During June the northern wings of Army Group South and Southwestern Front were engaged in an intense series of battles west of the Stalin Line in the Rovno, Dubno, Brody area, but by early July Southwestern Front's defences south of the Pripet Marshes were crumbling. During the first week of July First Panzer Group's advance east of Dubno was so rapid that it out-ran Southwestern Front's attempts to fall back on and man the Stalin Line defences west of Zhitomir. 11th Panzer reached Berdichev on 7 July and took it two days later.

[DavidFrankenberg]

They were in Pskov and Ostrov as soon as 8 july, but they waited 1 month before advancing farther. Such a loss of time. They waited for infantry ? This infantry was from AGN or AGC ?
Manhy thanks for your informations.

[Jeff Leach]

The article mentioned "Fortification of the USSR’s Western Border" By World at War Magazine april-may 2012 p.40 probably overstates the effect of the Stalin Line defenses. There is a statement at the end of the article

The garrisons of the Mogilev-Yampol, Rybnitsa and Tiraspol Fortified Regions, in conjunction with operations by field troops, actually brought a halt to the offensive of the German 11th and Romanian 4th Armies until outflanked by other forces moving down from the north. The battles along and within the Kiev Fortified Region lasted 70 days. The Karelian Fortified Region was never fully broken through. It could therefore be argued it was the stubborn resistance enabled by key portions of the fortified regions—not “General Mud” or “General Winter”— which first broke the momentum of Operation Barbarossa in 1941.

The Mogilev-Yampol UR didn't stop the thrusts of the German XI and XXX Army Corps, the Dniester River did. After reaching the Dniester River, both corps halted to bring up necessary material and supply, which was complicated by the very poor weather. In the sector of the XXX Army Corps the Soviet fortifications went all the way to the eastern bank of the Dniester River. The fortifications didn't cause that much of a problem to the river crossing. First they were suppressed by the German weapons dedicated to direct-fire on the bunkers firing both smoke and HE round on the bunker opening. Once, the Pioneers assault groups crossed the river, they finished off the bunkers with explosive-charges, hand grenades and flamethrowers. It didn't take the German attack more than one day to cross the river and to clear paths through the Stalin Line.

Those accounts I have read of the German troops reaching the Stalin Line (XI, XXX, LII Army Corps) are very similar. In each case the German formations were pursuing the retreating Soviet. Upon reaching the Stalin Line, the German units where forced to redeploy for an assault and this took a few days. Once the German formations were deployed for an assault, then the fortifications didn't cause much problems.

[Max Payload]

They were in Pskov and Ostrov as soon as 8 july, but they waited 1 month before advancing farther.

Incorrect. Reinhardt had two bridgeheads over the Luga by 14 July.

[DavidFrankenberg]

They were in Pskov and Ostrov as soon as 8 july, but they waited 1 month before advancing farther.

Incorrect. Reinhardt had two bridgeheads over the Luga by 14 July.

In August Army Group North had two primary objectives. Firstly, to breach the Luga defence line, isolate and then hopefully capture Leningrad with the 18th Army, and secondly to advance 16th Army eastwards into the Valdai Hills and capture Demyansk.
(...)
The Germans launched their attack along the Luga line on the 8th and 9th of August, while 16th Army attacked south of Lake Ilmen on 10th August. All along the front the fighting was fierce and only 41st Panzer Corps (at Kingisepp) made much progress. By 14th August the Kingisepp bridgehead (defences) had started to collapse, by 16th August 41st Panzer Corps had broken out, and on 17th August Narva was captured. By 20th August 41st Panzer Corps (now reinforced with the 8th Panzer Division) and 18th Army had isolated the main elements of the Soviet’s Luga Operational Group and trapped 30 000 men. The remnants of the Luga Operational Group contained 9 divisions (including a tank division): the fact that the average division was down to regimental strength (around 3 300 men each) is an indication of the fierce fighting in this sector, the tenacity of the Soviet defenders, and the speed with which the German Army could wear down even a dug in enemy force.

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/the- ... mber-1941/
That means the Line, despite being broken at some points, still offered good resistance. Isnt it ?

EDIT : my bad ! stalin line =/= luga line.

[Jeff Leach]

Here is what the commander of the XXX Army Corps said about the Stalin Line

The Stalin Line

The corps command has made a record of the Stalin-Line fortifications along the Dniester River in the sector of the XXX Army Corps.

It should be mentioned that the Stalin-Line fortifications in the corps’ sector are strong, especially since the Dniester River is nearly 300-meters-wide in the area and presents a huge obstacle forward of the fortifications. The fortifications are around 5 kilometers in depth. There are not that many fortifications, probably because the terrain is fairly open. Some of the fortifications are quite strong (see the maps and drawings). It is surprising that the enemy makes little use of wire obstacles (Drahthindernissen) or field fortifications (Feldstellungen), which is an advantage to the attacker. Enemy camouflage was good, but the sighting of the positions was poor. Almost all the positions were mapped. The Soviet only defended the ground between fortifications at the start of the attack. Later he only defended from the fortifications themselves, which was a disastrous decision for the defender.

The attack, which was based on surprise and it was launched after a 15-minute artillery barrage. Infantry guns, anti-tank guns, anti-aircraft guns, assault guns and field howitzers were moved into the front line so that they could conduct 10-minutes of direct fire on identified targets. The first assault teamed were launched five minutes before the end of the artillery barrage, which targeted the forward combat zone more than anything else. The enemy forward positioned were then swarmed with infantry and pioneers. At the start of the crossing, two air strikes of combat aircraft and medium bombers (Ju 88s) targeted the villages in the rear zone and the woods near GABJBIEVCA. In the sector of the left assault division (the 198th Infantry Division), smoke was fired to blind the enemy positions.

The direct fire didn’t destroy the bunkers, but it damaged their weapons and suppressed their crews. It is a credit to the infantry and pioneers that they pushed past these bunkers, which were then destroyed by assault troops. It only took a few hours to penetrate the Stalin-Line, which was completely breached by the next day. Mopping-up the remaining bunkers took a few more days, but it didn’t have any effect on the progress of operations.

The successful penetration of the Stalin-Line was the result of four days of in-depth reconnaissance, careful preparation and good cooperation between the infantry, pioneers, and artillery.

General of Infantry Hans von Salmuth (commander XXX Army Corps, 3rd August 1941)

(NARA T314 R825 Fr0193 – 0194)

[DavidFrankenberg]

Thank you very much. So even if it just took 1 day to go through the Stalin Line, the Germans however needed 4 days of reconnaissance before. So they spent like 5 days to cross the Stalin Line all in all. 5 days was a good deal for Stalin i guess.

[Art]

The first contact with the Mogilev-Podolsky fortified region was in the early morning of 7.7 when a "Brandenburg" unit tried unsuccessfully to capture the bridge over Dniester at Mogilev. The assault proper began on 17.7. So ten days delay.
What must also be mentioned is that the Dniester position was defended by one Soviet division (130th) plus fortification units stretched on a very wide front - almost 100km by air line. Which had opposite to it 6 German divisions and also Romanian elements. That would be impossible on a position with less fortification and natural strength. So from economy of force point of view the balance was more than positive.

[Art]

Here is what the commander of the XXX Army Corps said about the Stalin Line

That's the same episode, I guess:
https://www.feldgrau.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=34101

It must be added that the Soviet command ordered to abandon the fortified position and withdraw due to situation elsewhere soon after the German assault started which explains in some part little resistance met.