25-pounders in Anti-Tank role in Operation Crusader

[Dunnigan]

Hi,

I was curious about how likely the use of the 25-pounder was used as an anti-tank gun in Operation Crusader. I know it was used as such in the 5th South African Brigade in the Totensonntag fight. I believe there was another example of their use during the battle (possibly the New Zealanders?) but I can't remember.

It looks like they were used quite often to supplement the weak 2-pdr until the 6-pdr came on the scene but this wasn't until 1942. I'm curious if the artillerymen were trained in 1941 to use the 25-pdr as anti-tank or if it was initially out of desperation. I don't know how much of the solid shot was distributed at this time or if they were using HE against tanks.

This pamphlet goes into nice detail about its usage but is dated November 1942 which I figure was when the 25-pdrs were regularly used as anti-tank. I'm looking for their usage a year before that.
http://www.lonesentry.com/manuals/artil ... itank.html

There was a good discussion here on its usage but looking to see how much the crews were trained and if it was incorporated in their tactics and doctrine.
viewtopic.php?f=56&t=216042

Thanks.

[antwony]

http://www.lonesentry.com/manuals/artil ... itank.html

Interesting document.

Was surprised with its constant references to the 18-lbser, which seemed to have been used more commonly, according to the document, than the 25lbsers for AT work. I didn't know they still used 18lbsers in North Africa.

weak 2-pdr

It was good for its time, although that time wasn't really November 1942

[Sheldrake]

Hi,

I was curious about how likely the use of the 25-pounder was used as an anti-tank gun in Operation Crusader. I know it was used as such in the 5th South African Brigade in the Totensonntag fight. I believe there was another example of their use during the battle (possibly the New Zealanders?) but I can't remember.

This pamphlet goes into nice detail about its usage but is dated November 1942 which I figure was when the 25-pdrs were regularly used as anti-tank. I'm looking for their usage a year before that.
http://www.lonesentry.com/manuals/artil ... itank.html

The Lonesentry is a US document based on a report from what either the British had told them or by a US Officer. (maybe even the Colonel Fellars who was the target of axis espionage).

This is a well researched study. http://nigelef.tripod.com/anti-tank.htm

The British had two problems with anti tank artillery in the Western Desert.
#1 They did not start the war with anything like enough anti tank guns, made worse by the losses at Dunkirk, followed by Greece and Crete.
#2 The anti tank guns they had, i.e.the 2 pdr gun was out-ranged by German tanks.

Field artillery was expected to be able to engage tanks was was issued solid shot for that purpose. German formations included armoured, lightly armoured and soft skinned transport towing heavy weapons such as Anti tank guns. These were vulnerable to HE from 25 Pdrs, which was the proper job of field artillery.

[Tom from Cornwall]

Hi,

25 pdr field artillery was also used in the anti-tank role in April 1941 by both New Zealanders in Greece (explicitly, i.e. a NZ Field Regiment was given an Anti-tank role in an operation order) and by the British in Tobruk.

I could certainly dig out details of the NZ experience if that would help.

Regards

Tom

[Sheldrake]

For New Zealand artillery try here http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarl ... 2Arti.html

[Urmel]

18-pdrs were in service as supplementary AT guns with AT regiments as late as February 1942.

The 25-pdr had a secondary role as AT gun, originally for self-defense. It was only after CRUSADER that the implications of the weakness of the 2-pdr were fully understood. 25-pdrs did critical work as AT guns at Alam Halfa, Sidi Omar, Sidi Rezegh, and less well-known actions throughout CRUSADER.

[Dunnigan]

Thanks for the replies. The New Zealanders was probably the other example of the 25pdr use in addition to the much written about 5th South African Brigade. I figure this would've been either on the defensive action at Sidi Azeiz or around Sidi Rezegh and surrounding areas.

[Urmel]

It was actually 4 Indian Division and then 7 (?) South African Field Artillery who were the other conspicuous users.

[MarkN]

Thanks for the replies. The New Zealanders was probably the other example of the 25pdr use in addition to the much written about 5th South African Brigade. I figure this would've been either on the defensive action at Sidi Azeiz or around Sidi Rezegh and surrounding areas.

As Tom mentionned above, the New Zealand fld arty received op orders to act in an atk role in Greece in April 1941. A few days earlier (2 April), 104RHA were firing over open sights at German pantsers near Agedabia. As urmel wrote above, 25-pdr fld arty was active with direct fire against pantsers in Tobruk during April 1941 too. The well known skirmish of 14 April stands out as a prime example. 'Jock Columns' were frequently created from April 1941 onwards including either a troop or a battery of 25-pdrs which had both a fld and an atk role.

It was a common practice employed by just about all fld regts either by design of by default. Certainly not limited to a couple of Empire brigades during Op Crusader.

[Dunnigan]

Thanks Mark. For some reason I was struck with the idea that 25pdrs were less utilized in the 1940-1941 period than latter, but the examples pointed out here prove otherwise.

Thanks Andreas. I'm assuming that the 4th Indian's conspicuous use of the 25pdr as AT would've been defending Sidi Omar during Rommel's Race to the Wire (from your earlier post). Else I don't know if the 11th Brigade's actions at Bir el Gobi in the latter stages of the battle included their usage as it looks like they took significant losses... but of course the South Africans suffered much as well, so I shouldn't speculate on their use and usefulness of the 25pdr solely on their predicaments.

[Kingfish]

Didn't Combeforce use it's 25s in an AT role?

[MarkN]

As discussed earlier, 25-pdr field artillery was used, when necessary, in the atk role by Fld Arty Regts from the beginning.

However, by chance I fell upon the following in the 73 Med Regt RA WD for 30 Sept 1941:



The point here is not a field gun used by a field regiment being employed as an atk weapon due to necessity - but a deliberate move to organise a pair of former field gun batteries within an anti-tank regiment.

You will note it mentions that they are the second regiment to do so, the first being the New Zealanders, and the date. Referring back to the original post of this thread, I am wondering whether there has been a conflation of thoughts.

MarkNote: 73 Med Regt RA arrived in the ME at the end of September 1941. On arrival they were reroled as an Atk unit as indicated in the excerpt from the WD above. For a good while they considered themselves 73 ATk Regt RA unbeknown that another 73 ATk Regt RA already existed. At some point in time during 1942, the Regiment was updated with the news that, since 30 Sept 1941 they were 95 ATk Regt RA!!!!

[Urmel]

That may just have been a case of trying to find a use for the now surplus-to-requirements 18-pdrs though? With sufficient 25-pdrs arriving they were no longer needed in the field artillery role.

[Sheldrake]

That may just have been a case of trying to find a use for the now surplus-to-requirements 18-pdrs though? With sufficient 25-pdrs arriving they were no longer needed in the field artillery role.

I don't think it was a question of thinking of a use, but making the best use of flat trajectory weapons that could be deployed in the anti-tank role, pending the arrival of better anti-tank guns.

[Pips]

Am curious as to how effective the 25 Pdr was in the anti-tank role.

Admittedly it has a fairly heavy shell - 20 pound for the anti-tank shell (which compares favourably with the German 88mm) - but it's muzzle velocity was quite low. Could it penetrate German armour eg Mk.III and Mk.IV tanks? Or did it rely on shock effect to cause damage?

And are there any known examples of it knocking out the Tiger? Or for that matter the Panther when it faced it in Europe or Italy?