Panzer-Regiment 8

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David W
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Panzer-Regiment 8

Postby David W » 31 Dec 2017 16:13

Hi folks.

I have searched this forum, but can't find the information below.

Does anyone have the numbers of tanks by type and Ausf in each of the eight Kompanies of the 8th Panzer Regiment upon arrival in North Africa,

Many thanks,
David.

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Urmel
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Re: 8th Panzer Regiment

Postby Urmel » 07 Jan 2018 08:03

See the lines for 10 May and 24 April to 6 May here for 'by type':

https://rommelsriposte.com/2013/03/07/g ... th-africa/

The organisation was standard, you can find that in Jentz. Vehicles were all recent issue I believe, so whatever was the current make (guess Panzer IIIH and Panzer IVF?)

The 25 Panzer I were not issued to the regiment on arrival I believe but went to the engineers.
The excellence of [German] forward repair and recovery organisation gives us a salutary lesson in this respect. 7 Armoured Division report, Sept. 1941

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle in the Desert 1941/42

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Re: 8th Panzer Regiment

Postby David W » 07 Jan 2018 10:29

Thanks.
That's great.

I guess in that case the Panzer I were converted to Flampanzer and Ladungsleger.

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Re: 8th Panzer Regiment

Postby Alanmccoubrey » 09 Jan 2018 18:24

David, PR 8 never had any Panzer I and that link from Urmel shows the 25 Panzer I as being in PR 5, who used them, they didn't go to the engineers.
In Panzer Truppen 1 Jentz has PR 8 with the following, he also notes that when it arrived in Africa it was still of only six companies.
45 x Pz II, 71 x Pz III, 20 x Pz IV and 10 x PzBef(4 PzI and 6 PzIII)
Alan

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Re: 8th Panzer Regiment

Postby David W » 09 Jan 2018 19:17

Thanks Alan.

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Urmel
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Re: 8th Panzer Regiment

Postby Urmel » 12 Jan 2018 11:07

Sorry Alan, but that's not correct. There were two separate deliveries of 25 Panzer I each. 10-11 March, and 10 May. The first 25 went to PR5, the second were the KStN Panzer I for PR8, which never used them. These went to the engineers, as far as I can tell.

The link does not show who used them it shows the delivery destination, and in any case as I now note, it has a typo which I shall correct fortwith. Thanks for alerting me to it. The problem is that tables and Wordpress don't agree very well - but you can copy just the table by selecting it and paste it into a Spreadsheet.
The excellence of [German] forward repair and recovery organisation gives us a salutary lesson in this respect. 7 Armoured Division report, Sept. 1941

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle in the Desert 1941/42

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Re: 8th Panzer Regiment

Postby Alanmccoubrey » 12 Jan 2018 23:01

You're using strange language here, the "first 25 Pz I" didn't "go" to PR 5, PR 5 already had them when it arrived in Africa.
PR 8 already had the Pz II when it arrived in Africa to fit into its KStN in place of Pz I then there was no reason for a second shipment to that unit as replacements. Are you absolutely sure that there hasn't been a typo with the 10 May delivery really being the 10 March one repeated ? Jentz certainly states that PR 5 was the only user of the Pz I in those numbers.
Does your documentation show which type of Pz I made up this second shipment ? PR 5 used only the Ausf A while the only other unit in Africa known to use the Pz I, Pz.Jg.Abt. 605, used the Ausf B.
Alan

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Urmel
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Re: 8th Panzer Regiment

Postby Urmel » 13 Jan 2018 04:50

Hi Alan

I claim non-native speaker’s prerogative on the language. :) The 10 March transport was clearly the initial shipment of PR5.

I’ll check the documentation for typos and Ausf. - but I’m pretty sure it won’t have that kind of detail. Remind me in a few days by bumping the thread if I haven’t done it by then.

The Ausf. B in 605 were the chassis on which the PzJgr were built, or the command vehicles?
The excellence of [German] forward repair and recovery organisation gives us a salutary lesson in this respect. 7 Armoured Division report, Sept. 1941

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle in the Desert 1941/42

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Re: Panzer-Regiment 8

Postby Urmel » 14 Jan 2018 08:55

I am puzzling myself now.

1) I'm afraid the table as presented on my blog is wrong in the dates of delivery. I will fix that as a matter of urgency, but it will still take time. Given I put this online years ago, and have since migrated computers three or four times, I am currently not certain what the source for the information is, other than that it is nmao's list in the original. The updated version will be based on loading lists, and only extend to early 1942, or maybe through 1942, depending on what I feel like.
2) There are some interesting issues thrown up by the loading lists.

Once I have run the corrections I will post the link and key information here, in a new thread.

Having said that, here are some initial observations from a first run through the data:

1) In March at least 29 Panzer I were delivered. This includes combat tanks and kleine Befehlswagen conversions in my view. They are not designated separately in the loading lists.
2) In May, at least 4 Panzer I were sent allocated to units of 15. PzDiv - I presume these were kleine Befehlswagen.
3) In May, at least 16 undesignated 'Panzer, 5.7ts' were sent. These are almost certainly Pz I in my view. No other tank fits the weight, and when the Panzer I is mentioned it usually comes at 5.6 tons, while the Panzerjaeger I comes in at 10 tons in the loading lists (which seems very heavy). I suppose discrepancy to design weight of 5.4tons is fuel and ammunition and/or other equipment.
4) In June, Pionierbatallion 33 received at least 11 Panzer I, designated such.

Mark, I think it would be good if you could post the info you PM'd me.
The excellence of [German] forward repair and recovery organisation gives us a salutary lesson in this respect. 7 Armoured Division report, Sept. 1941

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle in the Desert 1941/42

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Re: Panzer-Regiment 8

Postby MarkN » 14 Jan 2018 13:49

Jentz clearly states the second batch of 25 Pz.I were originally assigned to Pz.Regt.5 from the outset but held back in Germany for later delivery from the main arrival March-April. I have not come across the original documentation used by Jentz for this.

Jentz also clearly states that that second batch of 25 Pz.I landed on 10 May and that arrangements were made for Ariete Div to bring them forward on 12 May. I have the original documentation that Jentz uses for this. However, he does not state subsequent notes that indicate that they were still sitting in Tripoli as of 24 May. Whilst Ariete Div agreed to supply the trucks on 12 May (the agreement was made on the 12th not that they would be picked up on the 12th), Pz.Regt.5 couldn't find enough pantser drivers to go with the Ariete trucks.

Jentz makes no comment on when they eventually arrived forward in Cyrenaica or who they eventually served with. I can find no reference in any of my documentation that identifies this precisely. However, comparing a series of einsatzbereit for Pz.Regt.5 in early June seems to suggest that at least half of them were initially allocated and on charge of the regiment. For example, on 13 June they had 27 einsatzbereit. Given the losses and mechanical state of the original 25 Pz.I that they arrived with, this suggest about 15 or so have been taken on.

As regards to what version of the Pz.I they all were, I am no tank spotter but Jentz was. I have found nothing to contradict his information - just things to add to it - and thus suggest that anybody interested in this aspect refer to his numerous publications on the subject.

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Re: Panzer-Regiment 8

Postby Brevity » 14 Jan 2018 22:59

And as a final proof, II. Abteilung noted the arrival of 10 "Pz.IA" on 7 June 1941, and they went to 8. coy

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Re: Panzer-Regiment 8

Postby Urmel » 15 Jan 2018 03:39

Thanks all. Apologies for the confusion created, but it did serve a purpose in the end, bringing forward quite a bit of new information. :)
The excellence of [German] forward repair and recovery organisation gives us a salutary lesson in this respect. 7 Armoured Division report, Sept. 1941

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle in the Desert 1941/42


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