How many 7.62 cm PaK 36 were sent to North Africa?

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ColinWright
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Re: How many 7.62 cm PaK 36 were sent to North Africa?

#61

Post by ColinWright » 01 Mar 2013, 02:05

Okay, not great information, but better than nothing. I ran a search on 'Pak 40 Tunisia' and this turned up. From the forum at a modelling site called 'Missing Lynx.com':

"David,
The 21st PD's history first mentions PaK40s with the division on 19 Dec. '42 (5 pieces). Although I don't have as detailed information on other units, it's a reasonable guess that they began receiving PaK40s at around the same timeframe, mid-to-late December '42. Note that at that time, in the DAK at least, there were still plenty of PaK38s and ex-Soviet 7,62cms around.
I think the 10th PD had PaK40s in the 3rd company of its Panzerjager battalion- there was a detailed Gliederung in a recent issue of Panzer Voran that should clear that up nicely. The units of 5th Pz Army in Tunisia were "new" units, transferred from Europe, so they're more likely to have the latest equipment.
best regards
Aris Kosionidis"


As I recall, the third company of 10. Panzer's PzJg battalion was equipped with Marders -- so if they were the 7.5 cm variation, that would be them. However, the remarks about 21.Panzer seem reasonable -- if less than conclusive.

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Re: How many 7.62 cm PaK 36 were sent to North Africa?

#62

Post by ColinWright » 01 Mar 2013, 02:43

This links to a Nafziger OOB; in this case, for 5th Panzer Army on 4 March 1943.

http://forums.warforge.ru/index.php?act ... t&id=30426

At a quick count, I get 45 PaK 40's and 3 PaK 36's. It's a bit uncertain, as in some cases, I assumed the pieces were Marders, while in others, the weapons aren't specified.

...So to guess, say fifty PaK 40's in Tunisia with 5th Panzer Army, more with whatever the other army was called by then, and the stream of PaK 36's seems to have dried up.

According to this, 10. Panzer's PanzerJager 90 did have towed as well as self-propelled PaK 40's.


ColinWright
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Re: How many 7.62 cm PaK 36 were sent to North Africa?

#63

Post by ColinWright » 01 Mar 2013, 03:01

Edit: so much for quick counts.

A more careful reading shows a total of at least 73 PaK 40's at least claimed to be present: 33 are in that German-Arab formation, and one can legitimately wonder if some of either the units or their equipment existed except on paper.

On the other hand, there's nothing on what 21. Panzer had, and I am ignoring the listings for '50 mm PaK 40.'

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Urmel
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Re: How many 7.62 cm PaK 36 were sent to North Africa?

#64

Post by Urmel » 01 Mar 2013, 09:15

Nafziger is not a reliable source.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

ColinWright
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Re: How many 7.62 cm PaK 36 were sent to North Africa?

#65

Post by ColinWright » 01 Mar 2013, 22:04

Urmel wrote:Nafziger is not a reliable source.
Well, he seems to have copied microfilms of something original.

Admittedly, his stuff is rife with typos and mistranslations, and admittedly, I'd prefer something else, but in the absence of something else...

What it boils down to is that Nafziger yields a total of 73+ PaK 40's in Tunisia by March -- and we have nothing to indicate that this wasn't the case. It's a perfectly reasonable figure for a force of that size in the Spring of 1943.

You gotta work with what you can find. Sometimes that means Nafziger and then try to verify.

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Urmel
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Re: How many 7.62 cm PaK 36 were sent to North Africa?

#66

Post by Urmel » 01 Mar 2013, 22:52

I've copied microfilms of something original too, and it doesn't really tell you what was going on in terms of what was there.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: How many 7.62 cm PaK 36 were sent to North Africa?

#67

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 01 Mar 2013, 23:12

Urmel wrote:This is the only thing I could find regarding Pak40, and TBH I have no idea if this isn't a Pak38

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... cm_Pak.jpg

The gun in that pic is definitely a Pak 38.
Alan

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Re: How many 7.62 cm PaK 36 were sent to North Africa?

#68

Post by Dili » 02 Mar 2013, 06:38

For the PAK 40 i link here a photo that a respected magazine Storia Militare said was a Pak 40 being unloaded from a ship in 1941.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0&t=155979

Unfortunately the website linked vanished, but the photo is on the thread.

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Urmel
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Re: How many 7.62 cm PaK 36 were sent to North Africa?

#69

Post by Urmel » 02 Mar 2013, 08:54

Dili wrote:For the PAK 40 i link here a photo that a respected magazine Storia Militare said was a Pak 40 being unloaded from a ship in 1941.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0&t=155979

Unfortunately the website linked vanished, but the photo is on the thread.
Two reasons why I am convinced the date is wrong.

i) No Pak 40 is reported by the Germans as part of the AT arsenal in November 1941
ii) According to Lexikon der Wehrmacht the first 15 Pak 40 were not accepted by the German army until February 1942, and only 44 were produced in total in 1941.

So it maybe a Pak 40, but it's definitely not in 1941.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

Alanmccoubrey
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Re: How many 7.62 cm PaK 36 were sent to North Africa?

#70

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 30 Nov 2015, 18:44

Has anyone actually seen a photograph of the 7,62 cm Pak 36(r) in North Africa ? Other than the guns in Marder III's all the photographs that I can find are of the 7,62 cm FK 296(r)/36(r).
Alan

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David W
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Re: How many 7.62 cm PaK 36 were sent to North Africa?

#71

Post by David W » 03 Dec 2015, 08:32

Never seen one either.

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David W
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Re: How many 7.62 cm PaK 36 were sent to North Africa?

#72

Post by David W » 19 Mar 2016, 12:01

Have we got any closer to answering the original question?

Wold it be easier if we broke it down and asked how any arrived in 1942 for example?

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Re: How many 7.62 cm PaK 36 were sent to North Africa?

#73

Post by MarkN » 21 Jan 2018, 23:51

Bit late to the party, but thought you chaps would like to see this...

Image

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Urmel
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Re: How many 7.62 cm PaK 36 were sent to North Africa?

#74

Post by Urmel » 22 Jan 2018, 04:20

It's instructive regarding the transport crisis engulfing the Axis forces that none of these made it before January 1942.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: How many 7.62 cm PaK 36 were sent to North Africa?

#75

Post by David W » 22 Jan 2018, 20:54

Thanks Mark.

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