Tobruk outside perimeter area april 1941

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ClintHardware
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Re: Tobruk outside perimeter area april 1941

Postby ClintHardware » 06 Feb 2018 19:41

MarkN wrote:Legged it at maximum speed


Legged it at maximum speed = 8 m.p.h on average if dragging 25-Pdrs and limbers. That really is legging it.

DAK KTB does not agree with your Vorausabteilung Knabe at this point, but then it is lacking detail in places.

The tanks might be the awesome armour of the scratched together single squadron of the 7th Hussars - can't recall what date they reached the frontier. They spent weeks entertaining themselves trying to ambush at least one 8-Rad (the 8-Rads kept legging it). The 7th Hussars final attempt at bagging an 8 Rad was foiled by a helpful American Major and then they handed their massive Light Tanks Mk. VI Bs over to the 3rd Hussars. There always has to be an American to make the film popular with the American public. No nurses in a truck needing a pint of Carlsberg so far found.
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Re: Tobruk outside perimeter area april 1941

Postby MarkN » 08 Feb 2018 18:42

ClintHardware wrote: Legged it at maximum speed = 8 m.p.h on average if dragging 25-Pdrs and limbers. That really is legging it.

Retreating at maximum speed is legging it as fast as you can.

ClintHardware wrote: DAK KTB does not agree with your Vorausabteilung Knabe at this point, ...

My Vorausabteilung Knabe???? :roll: I posted details from Spt Gp WD

How does DAK KTB disagree with the Spt Gp WD?

More detail can be found in other German KTBs.

ClintHardware wrote:... but then it is lacking detail in places.

The DAK KTB is a corps level diary. It has the level and quantity one would expect from a corps level diary. The WDF WD has even less 'detail' on the skirmish with a similar amount of words. However, one sentence grabbed my attention:
Importance of preventing enemy securing area BARDIA - CAPUZZO - SOLLUM - BARDIA stressed.

Given the Germans drove into Bardia and Sollum without a fight, and Capuzzo was taken quite sharpish too, it seems Gott didn't understand how important it was or perhaps he didn't feel the importance was stressed to him strongly enough to merit greater effort.

ClintHardware wrote:The tanks might be the awesome armour of the scratched together single squadron of the 7th Hussars - can't recall what date they reached the frontier. They spent weeks entertaining themselves trying to ambush at least one 8-Rad (the 8-Rads kept legging it). The 7th Hussars final attempt at bagging an 8 Rad was foiled by a helpful American Major and then they handed their massive Light Tanks Mk. VI Bs over to the 3rd Hussars. There always has to be an American to make the film popular with the American public. No nurses in a truck needing a pint of Carlsberg so far found.

The tanks mentionned in my previous post, the Spt Gp WD, were referring to German pantsers not British tanks. Pantsers which were not there, but were claimed to be by unreliable eyewitness. If they had been there, it would help your miscalculation on pantser losses though. :roll:

Off the top of my head, the 7H squadron were involved in probing action on the 15th or 16th.

I have absolutely no idea what you are on about regarding nurses, Carlsberg and American films.

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Re: Tobruk outside perimeter area april 1941

Postby Aber » 10 Feb 2018 23:04

MarkN wrote:
I have absolutely no idea what you are on about regarding nurses, Carlsberg and American films.


Have a cold one :D

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Re: Tobruk outside perimeter area april 1941

Postby Urmel » 11 Feb 2018 01:34

The excellence of [German] forward repair and recovery organisation gives us a salutary lesson in this respect. 7 Armoured Division report, Sept. 1941

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle in the Desert 1941/42

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Re: Tobruk outside perimeter area april 1941

Postby ClintHardware » 11 Feb 2018 10:12

MarkN wrote: My Vorausabteilung Knabe???? :roll: I posted details from Spt Gp WD


If you say so. Legging it is perhaps in the eye of the panztsers. Enjoy the film.

The Light Tanks of ‘B’ Squadron 7th Hussars arrived amongst the 3rd Coldstream Guards at Sollum on the 9th April where they came temporarily the under the command of the battalion along with the twenty 3-Tonners of No. 14 Reserve Motor Transport Company R.A.S.C. The 7th Hussars’ first task was to cover the Sollum area dumps from raiding parties.

After dark on the 10th they motored along the Via Balbia and climbed the heights of the escarpment. They leaguered close to Musaid where they happily encountered Major A. I. C. Cameron originally from their regiment who had just arrived having escaped from Mechili two days earlier.

Having pulled back from outside Tobruk, Brigadier Gott’s Support Group began concentrating at Sollum late on the 11th April. The forward patrols of the 11th Hussars observed towards Tobruk, and early on the 11th they sent out three patrols to cover the western approaches to Capuzzo (Sidi Azeiz, Bir Charruba and Bir Ghirba). The 7th Hussars saw no German or Italian troops this day and came under the direct command of 22nd Guards Brigade H.Q. for operations.
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Re: Tobruk outside perimeter area april 1941

Postby MarkN » 11 Feb 2018 11:22

Urmel wrote:http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0053935/

OK...

So does this ...
ClintHardware wrote:There always has to be an American to make the film popular with the American public. No nurses in a truck needing a pint of Carlsberg so far found.

... indicate he is engaged in writing a Holywood filmscript to satisfy the American public?

:lol:

XXXX

ClintHardware wrote: The Light Tanks of ‘B’ Squadron 7th Hussars arrived amongst the 3rd Coldstream Guards at Sollum on the 9th April where they came temporarily the under the command of the battalion along with the twenty 3-Tonners of No. 14 Reserve Motor Transport Company R.A.S.C. The 7th Hussars’ first task was to cover the Sollum area dumps from raiding parties.

After dark on the 10th they motored along the Via Balbia and climbed the heights of the escarpment. They leaguered close to Musaid where they happily encountered Major A. I. C. Cameron originally from their regiment who had just arrived having escaped from Mechili two days earlier.

Having pulled back from outside Tobruk, Brigadier Gott’s Support Group began concentrating at Sollum late on the 11th April. The forward patrols of the 11th Hussars observed towards Tobruk, and early on the 11th they sent out three patrols to cover the western approaches to Capuzzo (Sidi Azeiz, Bir Charruba and Bir Ghirba). The 7th Hussars saw no German or Italian troops this day and came under the direct command of 22nd Guards Brigade H.Q. for operations.

So, the British had some tanks in the Sollum area from the 9th onwards. Therefore, if the Germans claim to have spotted enemy pantsers when they arrived in the area on the 13th, there is a possibility of it being accurate - although unlikely as it seems the 7H squadron was held well back at that stage. However, British claims of seeing German pantsers on the same day remain on the level of absurdity since there were none there.

Mind you, perhaps you could write into your Hollywood script that the German advance was lead by pantsers to make it easier for your audiance to understand why the British put up such a poor performance in "preventing enemy securing area BARDIA - CAPUZZO - SOLLUM" as ordered.

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Re: Tobruk outside perimeter area april 1941

Postby ClintHardware » 11 Feb 2018 12:18

They don't think they did. They were content to withdraw as required in order to fight when ready in places of their choosing as far as possible by using their Mobility.

They would have really liked to hold Bardia etc but as you pointed out elsewhere the British Treasury had seriously undermined the Middle East. Generalleutnant Rommel was an excellent trainer for British and Commonwealth forces in the Middle East. This stuff could not have been mastered on Salisbury Plain and the surrounding towns and villages. We should have a statue of Rommel along Whitehall and if not there perhaps at Bovington.
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Re: Tobruk outside perimeter area april 1941

Postby MarkN » 11 Feb 2018 12:38

ClintHardware wrote:They would have really liked to hold Bardia etc but as you pointed out elsewhere the British Treasury had seriously undermined the Middle East.

Where did I do so?

ClintHardware wrote: Generalleutnant Rommel was an excellent trainer for British and Commonwealth forces in the Middle East. This stuff could not have been mastered on Salisbury Plain and the surrounding towns and villages. We should have a statue of Rommel along Whitehall and if not there perhaps at Bovington.

Are you now back to your pet fantasy of "the Empire exercising"? Is that the working title of your Hollywood script?

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Re: Tobruk outside perimeter area april 1941

Postby ClintHardware » 11 Feb 2018 15:13

MarkN wrote:fantasies delusional babbling fairy tales


Steady.

The circumstances and the War Diaries do not help you.

Ice Cold in Alex was made in the UK at Associated British Elstree Studios, Shenley Road, Borehamwood, Hertfordshire by the Associated British Picture Corporation.

Have a cold one in Alex if you get there. 8-)
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