XXVII Battaglioni Divisionale Armi Accompagnamento
Re: XXVII Battaglioni Divisionale Armi Accompagnamento
Thanks Mark.
Good work Jeff and Urmel.
Good work Jeff and Urmel.
Re: XXVII Battaglioni Divisionale Armi Accompagnamento
I reviewed the sources listed in my notes.
Both Pavia and Bologna were transitioning to the divisione motorizzata tipo A.S. using organic assets. Both the XVII and the XXV btg. div. a.a. existed at the start of Crusader.
Brescia was instructed not to transition in August. Both Bresica and Savona were to assume the structure of a divisioni occupazione.
In May 1941, Montanari states
Pista! Jeff
Both Pavia and Bologna were transitioning to the divisione motorizzata tipo A.S. using organic assets. Both the XVII and the XXV btg. div. a.a. existed at the start of Crusader.
Brescia was instructed not to transition in August. Both Bresica and Savona were to assume the structure of a divisioni occupazione.
In May 1941, Montanari states
Pistola was created using G.A.F. formations and was planned as a division occupazione, so would never have a btg. div. a.a.Finally, the Sabratha existed only in name because it was reduced to two battalions, two 81mm mortar companies and two 47/32 companies, without even a truck.
Pista! Jeff
Jeff Leser
Infantrymen of the Air
Infantrymen of the Air
Re: XXVII Battaglioni Divisionale Armi Accompagnamento
Thanks Jeff, great work.
Re: XXVII Battaglioni Divisionale Armi Accompagnamento
Looking at the pieces of the KStNs provided by Mark, you can see that the transition for Bologna and Pavia to divisione motorizzata tipo A.S. was still incomplete.
The dashed boxes around the Fucile c.c. indicate that these units were not present/operational. As I don't have the key, I can't determine whether these units were organizing in A.S., or whether they were still in Italy.
Brescia is missing the entire btg. mtr. From earlier statements, I assume the dashed box indicates that the btg. is in Napoli.
Pista! Jeff
The dashed boxes around the Fucile c.c. indicate that these units were not present/operational. As I don't have the key, I can't determine whether these units were organizing in A.S., or whether they were still in Italy.
Brescia is missing the entire btg. mtr. From earlier statements, I assume the dashed box indicates that the btg. is in Napoli.
Pista! Jeff
Jeff Leser
Infantrymen of the Air
Infantrymen of the Air
Re: XXVII Battaglioni Divisionale Armi Accompagnamento
I am not seeing any dashed boxes. Did the Btg armi accomp. still existed with AS42 where most everything was given at company level except mortars and 20mm?
Re: XXVII Battaglioni Divisionale Armi Accompagnamento
Dill
RE: KStN dashed lines. I believe the penciled boxes are actually dashed lines that have been drawn over.
RE: btg. div a.a. No, the btg. and cp. a.a. (divisional and regimental) that previously existed were not part of the A.S. 42 structure. The only ground weapons outside of the infantry companies was a 81mm mortar company at the regimental level.
Pista! Jeff
RE: KStN dashed lines. I believe the penciled boxes are actually dashed lines that have been drawn over.
RE: btg. div a.a. No, the btg. and cp. a.a. (divisional and regimental) that previously existed were not part of the A.S. 42 structure. The only ground weapons outside of the infantry companies was a 81mm mortar company at the regimental level.
Pista! Jeff
Jeff Leser
Infantrymen of the Air
Infantrymen of the Air
Re: XXVII Battaglioni Divisionale Armi Accompagnamento
Thanks, so where were the 20mm guns? the usual 16 (2 coy's) at Artillery Regiment? i also have a note in my data that there was 2 at HQ level
Re: XXVII Battaglioni Divisionale Armi Accompagnamento
Dill
My info shows a 20/65 battery with the artillery regiment. The 20/65 in the btg. div. a.a. are in addition to the guns assigned in the artillery regiment.
Pista! Jeff
My info shows a 20/65 battery with the artillery regiment. The 20/65 in the btg. div. a.a. are in addition to the guns assigned in the artillery regiment.
Pista! Jeff
Jeff Leser
Infantrymen of the Air
Infantrymen of the Air
Re: XXVII Battaglioni Divisionale Armi Accompagnamento
That's correct. They indicate the unit hasn't been shipped, or has been sunk, but in any case is not present. The key is on the bottom left of the cover page I sent you. In MarkN's version of the KStN they are not dashed but solid lines.jwsleser wrote:Dill
RE: KStN dashed lines. I believe the penciled boxes are actually dashed lines that have been drawn over.
Pista! Jeff
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41
The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42
The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42
Re: XXVII Battaglioni Divisionale Armi Accompagnamento
But that is not for AS42 since you said it didn't existed anymore. So reformulating my question, how many 20mm guns in AS42 and in what subunits?jwsleser wrote:Dill
My info shows a 20/65 battery with the artillery regiment. The 20/65 in the btg. div. a.a. are in addition to the guns assigned in the artillery regiment.
Pista! Jeff
I checked Dr.Niehorster website and he probably have that wrong and mixed up ATR's with 20mm AA http://www.niehorster.org/019_italy/org ... _42as.html
Re: XXVII Battaglioni Divisionale Armi Accompagnamento
Dill
I answered your question assuming that you asking about the divisione motorizzata tipo A.S. I now understand that you were asking about the tipo A.S. 42.
Let me first insure we are not mixing the two organizations in this discussion.
The divisione motorizzata tipo A.S. has a btg. a.a in each regiment. This battalion has a cp. 81mm, cp. mtr., cp. 47/32, and a cp. 20/35. The division itself has a btg. a.a. divisione with a cp. mtr., cp. 47/32, and a cp. 20/35 (it doesn't have the mortars). The regg. di artigleria has a gruppo c.a. with 20/35 guns. There were plans that each division would have a btg. misto c.a. (90/53 and 20/35) but that didn't happen.
The divisione fanteria tipo A.S. 42 no longer has any btg. a.a. Each regiment has a cp. 81mm, while the btg. f. has four companies, each company with a pl. fanti, pl. mtr., pl. 47/32 c.c. and pl. 20mm c.c. (Solothurn, but French 25mm c.c. were used as a substitute). The regg. di artigleria had two btr. 20/35.
As you can see, the number of 20/35 c.a. is significantly less in the tipo A.S. 42.
Did I answer your question, or did I get it wrong again
Pista! Jeff
Edit: I noticed that the 20/35 is listed as a compagnia, not a batteria. I checked my source (Montanari vol II Tobruk page 454 fn 46) and he does state compagnia. I assume that the cp c.a. has only 6 guns instead of the 8 found in a btr.
I answered your question assuming that you asking about the divisione motorizzata tipo A.S. I now understand that you were asking about the tipo A.S. 42.
Let me first insure we are not mixing the two organizations in this discussion.
The divisione motorizzata tipo A.S. has a btg. a.a in each regiment. This battalion has a cp. 81mm, cp. mtr., cp. 47/32, and a cp. 20/35. The division itself has a btg. a.a. divisione with a cp. mtr., cp. 47/32, and a cp. 20/35 (it doesn't have the mortars). The regg. di artigleria has a gruppo c.a. with 20/35 guns. There were plans that each division would have a btg. misto c.a. (90/53 and 20/35) but that didn't happen.
The divisione fanteria tipo A.S. 42 no longer has any btg. a.a. Each regiment has a cp. 81mm, while the btg. f. has four companies, each company with a pl. fanti, pl. mtr., pl. 47/32 c.c. and pl. 20mm c.c. (Solothurn, but French 25mm c.c. were used as a substitute). The regg. di artigleria had two btr. 20/35.
As you can see, the number of 20/35 c.a. is significantly less in the tipo A.S. 42.
Did I answer your question, or did I get it wrong again
Pista! Jeff
Edit: I noticed that the 20/35 is listed as a compagnia, not a batteria. I checked my source (Montanari vol II Tobruk page 454 fn 46) and he does state compagnia. I assume that the cp c.a. has only 6 guns instead of the 8 found in a btr.
Jeff Leser
Infantrymen of the Air
Infantrymen of the Air
Re: XXVII Battaglioni Divisionale Armi Accompagnamento
I think so
So let's recap what AS divisions existed check if you agree or disagree.
Infantry Div.
AS40 - the initial infantry division
AS41(not named as such) with armi. accomp. Btg at regiment level
AS42 light weapons diverted to companies except mortars that remain at regiment level and 20mm that disappear at regiment level, means less 20mm AA returning almost to the levels of AS40.
Moto.Div.
AS41 motorized(not named as such) - the European motorized division without Bersaglieri regiment that is now Corps asset
AS42 motorized - eventually should get an armored car recon regiment and a tank bn but that never happen.
Arm Div.
AS42 armored - remain more or less the same from European always with one tank regiment and a bersaglieri regiment but gets an armored car recon regiment, an assault gun Semovente Bn and a group of autocannone. Artillery also changes with howitzer being removed and long range 105mm guns replacing them. Some of this changes were made before AS42
When AS42 was formalized and should have been in field?
So let's recap what AS divisions existed check if you agree or disagree.
Infantry Div.
AS40 - the initial infantry division
AS41(not named as such) with armi. accomp. Btg at regiment level
AS42 light weapons diverted to companies except mortars that remain at regiment level and 20mm that disappear at regiment level, means less 20mm AA returning almost to the levels of AS40.
Moto.Div.
AS41 motorized(not named as such) - the European motorized division without Bersaglieri regiment that is now Corps asset
AS42 motorized - eventually should get an armored car recon regiment and a tank bn but that never happen.
Arm Div.
AS42 armored - remain more or less the same from European always with one tank regiment and a bersaglieri regiment but gets an armored car recon regiment, an assault gun Semovente Bn and a group of autocannone. Artillery also changes with howitzer being removed and long range 105mm guns replacing them. Some of this changes were made before AS42
When AS42 was formalized and should have been in field?
Re: XXVII Battaglioni Divisionale Armi Accompagnamento
Excellen idea. I waited to return home so I have my sources handy.So let's recap what AS divisions existed check if you agree or disagree.
The actual name in the USSME books is divisione autotrasportabile di ftr. tipo A.S. I have made the mistake in using divisione fanteria A.S. a few times as the sources are mixed. None of the divisions in A.S. are organized as a divisione fanteria.Infantry Div AS40 - the initial infantry division
Yes, there isn't any organization titled AS41. The actual name is divisione motorizzata tipo A.S. The divisione autotrasportabile di ftr. tipo A.S. was replaced by the divisione motorizzata tipo A.S. The Comando Supremo recognized that the units in A.S. needed to be fully motorized. All the divisione autotrasportabile tipo A.S. were replaced by either the divisione motorizzata tipo A.S. or the divisione occupazione. The latter reflected the understanding that Italy couldn't provided provide the transport needed to equip all the forces in A.S. Conceptually, there isn't a divisione fanteria tipo A.S. in 1941 (after May-June). The reality is that Brescia remained a divisione autotrasportabile di ftr. tipo A.S. and Savona had lost so much that it never was fully rebuilt.AS41(not named as such) with armi. accomp. Btg at regiment level
The divisione fanteria tipo A.S. 42 was a fundamental change. It was maximized for increased defensive firepower and transportatbilty, but sacrifices offensive capability. Note that the metropolitan divisions didn't have c.a. at the regimental level. It was the divisione motorizzata tipo A.S. that provided c.a. at the regimental level. The A.S. tipo 42 merely returned to that previous standard.AS42 light weapons diverted to companies except mortars that remain at regiment level and 20mm that disappear at regiment level, means less 20mm AA returning almost to the levels of AS40.
The tipo A.S. 42 design allows the battalion to establish defensive positions that have limited self-sufficiency and allows strong-point defenses. It has basically no offensive capability and Italy wasn't able to provide the number of trucks necessary to make it fully mobile. IBWs, Italy recognized need to reduce the number of trucks, but was unable to provide even the reduced number of trucks needed.
No, the divisione motorizzata tipo A.S. was different. The addition of the btg. a.a. at the regimental and divisional level was a significant change. Compare it to the change in the 3rd Celere division in Russia in 1942. That change was merely adding a second regg. bersaglieri.Moto.Div.
AS41 motorized(not named as such) - the European motorized division without Bersaglieri regiment that is now Corps asset
It did happened for a limited period. Trieste did have the VIII btg. bersaglieri cor. at Gazala and Alamein, and the XI btg. carri M at Alamein. As with everything else, Italy couldn't equip the organizations that were fielded.AS42 motorized - eventually should get an armored car recon regiment and a tank bn but that never happen.
There never was an A.S. divisione corazzata organization. The 1941 divisione corazzata A.S. was significantly different but was not adopted because the of lack of material. The changes in the armored division were universal to all Italian armored divisions and not limited to A.S.Arm Div.
AS42 armored - remain more or less the same from European always with one tank regiment and a bersaglieri regiment but gets an armored car recon regiment, an assault gun Semovente Bn and a group of autocannone. Artillery also changes with howitzer being removed and long range 105mm guns replacing them. Some of this changes were made before AS42
This is an important point, as the tipo A.S. organizations were not adopted outside of A.S. No other Italian divisions were reorganized based in the tipo A.S. 42 design.
The conversions started in Jan 1942. This was mainly due to losses. As replacement men and material flowed into A.S., units were rebuilt into the tipo A.S. 42 structure. Units weren't stood-down and reorganized, they were rebuilt into the new design.When AS42 was formalized and should have been in field?
Pista! Jeff
Jeff Leser
Infantrymen of the Air
Infantrymen of the Air
Re: XXVII Battaglioni Divisionale Armi Accompagnamento
Dill
Here is what I wrote in my paper.When AS42 was formalized and should have been in field?
Pista! Jeff1940 and 1941 saw the Italian military involved in combat operations in France, Greece, Albania, and North Africa. By early 1941, these campaigns had resulted in a significant loss of material that Italian industry was unable to rapidly replace. Simultaneously, the Italian senior leadership recognized that the pre-war organizations were inadequate for modern maneuver warfare. In September 1941, the Comando Superiore Forzes Armata A.S. began examining options to increase the combat power of Italian formations in North Africa, yet at the same time reducing them in size so to be easier to equip and support. The losses suffered by the retreating Axis forces during Operation Crusader in November-December 1941 provided a window of opportunity to affect a reorganization of the divisions. The Comando Superiore Forzes Armata A.S. on 2 January 1942 issued instructions for the reorganization of all Italian Divisions in North Africa as tipo A.S. 42 series divisions.
The significant change in the organizations was the creation of combined arms companies. Support weapons were decentralized to the platoon level, while the infantry element was reduced. The provision of automatic weapons created units that were smaller, yet reflected an increase in firepower. Because of the losses in Nov-Dec 1941, the transition was planned for two phases. [34]
The first phase was to reorganize the units using existing assets in Africa. Regiments would initially reorganize with only two battalions; battalions would reorganize with only two companies.
The second phase would bring the divisions up to the tipo A.S. 42 standard using reinforcements and replacements from Italy. The reality was none of the units were completed, losses both in transport from Italy and combat losses in Africa precluded the completion of the A.S. 42 reorganization.
34 Seconda controffensiva Italo-Tedesca in Africa Settentrionale da El Ahgiela a El Alamein allegato 1.
Jeff Leser
Infantrymen of the Air
Infantrymen of the Air
Re: XXVII Battaglioni Divisionale Armi Accompagnamento
Thanks Jeff, very informative.
So was Pistoia a Divisione Occupazione or Divisione tipo A.S. 42 ?
Regards,
David.
So was Pistoia a Divisione Occupazione or Divisione tipo A.S. 42 ?
Regards,
David.