Crusader OOB

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vaggelis
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Re: Crusader OOB

Post by vaggelis » 14 May 2019 14:38

I'd like to know in which way the 3 different type of tanks (Pz II, III & IV) allocated to a panzer battalion. I read that typically there were a light company (PzII), a medium (PzIII) and a heavy (PzIV). Is that correct for the specific order of battle of the german tank battalions for the operation Crusader?
Additionally I have the same question about the composition of the companies of 3rd and 33rd recon battalions.

yantaylor
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Re: Crusader OOB

Post by yantaylor » 18 May 2019 12:56

I am sure that there was only two types of company, one having Pz IIIs [light] and the other having Pz IVs [medium], the Pz IIs were found in both of these companies.
On paper you would have two light companies to one medium company.

Yan

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Re: Crusader OOB

Post by sultanbev » 23 May 2019 20:55

The 115th Schutzen Regiment had a regimental infantry gun company authorised, but it was sunk at sea in April 1941. As far as I can gather it was not replaced by the time of Crusader.(pg 215 Tank Combat in North Africa The Opening Rounds, Jentz)

"I'd like to know in which way the 3 different type of tanks (Pz II, III & IV) allocated to a panzer battalion. "
The Panzer Battalion in North Africa at this time had 2 LIght Companies each of 5x Panzer IIC and 17x Panzer IIIG/H, and 1 Medium Company with 5x Panzer IIC and 10x Panzer IVD/E. It appears that the Panzer IVs in the Medium Company were often cross-attached to the Light Companies on operation, allowing one platoon of 4 Panzer IVD/E to be added to each Light Company.

The Battalions were supposed to have 3 Light Companies, but in both the 5th and 8th Panzer Regiments, these did not arrive until towards the end of December 1941, bringing with them Panzer IIIJ (5cmL42) and Panzer IIF variants. (pg.174, Panzer Truppen 1, Jentz), although those belonging to 5th Panzer were sunk on 19th December 1941.
Regarding 8th Panzer Regiment of 15th Panzer Division, Jentz' Panzer Truppen 1 pg.173 references a regimental pioneer unit mounted in armoured halftracks. So that is where some of the Sdkfz 251 went. I'm assuming it was a platoon sized unit until further details appear, does anyone know?

Mark

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Urmel
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Re: Crusader OOB

Post by Urmel » 24 May 2019 14:50

sultanbev wrote:
23 May 2019 20:55
The 115th Schutzen Regiment had a regimental infantry gun company authorised, but it was sunk at sea in April 1941. As far as I can gather it was not replaced by the time of Crusader.(pg 215 Tank Combat in North Africa The Opening Rounds, Jentz)
In September the company was in Naples, waiting for transport. I can have a look-see if it made it over.
sultanbev wrote:
23 May 2019 20:55
"I'd like to know in which way the 3 different type of tanks (Pz II, III & IV) allocated to a panzer battalion. "
The Panzer Battalion in North Africa at this time had 2 LIght Companies each of 5x Panzer IIC and 17x Panzer IIIG/H, and 1 Medium Company with 5x Panzer IIC and 10x Panzer IVD/E. It appears that the Panzer IVs in the Medium Company were often cross-attached to the Light Companies on operation, allowing one platoon of 4 Panzer IVD/E to be added to each Light Company.
That was the standard MO at least by CRUSADER. The IVs and IIIs were fought as integrated companies.
sultanbev wrote:
23 May 2019 20:55
The Battalions were supposed to have 3 Light Companies, but in both the 5th and 8th Panzer Regiments, these did not arrive until towards the end of December 1941, bringing with them Panzer IIIJ (5cmL42) and Panzer IIF variants. (pg.174, Panzer Truppen 1, Jentz), although those belonging to 5th Panzer were sunk on 19th December 1941.
One of the most effective sub attacks ever, sinking around 100 tanks.
sultanbev wrote:
23 May 2019 20:55
Regarding 8th Panzer Regiment of 15th Panzer Division, Jentz' Panzer Truppen 1 pg.173 references a regimental pioneer unit mounted in armoured halftracks. So that is where some of the Sdkfz 251 went. I'm assuming it was a platoon sized unit until further details appear, does anyone know?
The engineers were also given Panzer I that were obsolete. They don't show up in the KSTN, and neither does the company with halftracks.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

sultanbev
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Re: Crusader OOB

Post by sultanbev » 26 May 2019 15:34

Regarding 606th Flak Battalion, in Nigel Askey's huge tome Operation Barbarossa vol IIa, pg 434, states it arrived in North Africa with 24x Sdkfz 10/4 and 10x truck mounted 2cm Flak30.
Some of the replacements scheduled/received might then be to replace the truck mounted guns as well as losses?

Mark

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Urmel
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Re: Crusader OOB

Post by Urmel » 27 May 2019 09:04

One company was lost at sea at the end of March on Heraklea I think. They weren’r replaced until much later.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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David W
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Re: Crusader OOB

Post by David W » 27 May 2019 09:49

I think it was the 2nd company that was lost. But would like confirmation.

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Urmel
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Re: Crusader OOB

Post by Urmel » 27 May 2019 15:55

Yes it was 2. Kp.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Urmel
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Re: Crusader OOB

Post by Urmel » 27 May 2019 16:00

sultanbev wrote:
26 May 2019 15:34
Regarding 606th Flak Battalion, in Nigel Askey's huge tome Operation Barbarossa vol IIa, pg 434, states it arrived in North Africa with 24x Sdkfz 10/4 and 10x truck mounted 2cm Flak30.
Some of the replacements scheduled/received might then be to replace the truck mounted guns as well as losses?

Mark
Sorry, also this means Askey is likely wrong. They arrived with 30 Sdkfz 10/4 (15 in each Kompanie that made it across). They may well have been given truck-mounted guns as replacements for the sunk Kompanie, but that would have been in North Africa. Most of the personnel of 2. Kp was rescued from Heraklea and another 60 men of the Kp. were on Ruhr.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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David W
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Re: Crusader OOB

Post by David W » 27 May 2019 16:31

Hi Urmel.

I did not know that they arrived with 30x SdKfz 10/4.

I thought that it was; 1st & 3rd Ko. 12x SdKfz 10/4 Each. + 3x Kfz 81 auf 2cm FlaK Each. = 30 self propelled vehicles?

Happy to be wrong!

Kind regards,
David.

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Urmel
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Re: Crusader OOB

Post by Urmel » 28 May 2019 19:33

Loading list may lie but it has 15x Sdkfz 10/4 each. 🤷‍♂️
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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David W
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Re: Crusader OOB

Post by David W » 29 May 2019 07:03

Thanks

vaggelis
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Re: Crusader OOB

Post by vaggelis » 29 May 2019 18:23

Thanks all of you guys!

yantaylor
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Re: Crusader OOB

Post by yantaylor » 03 Jun 2019 11:39

From reading various posts and web sites, you can see that both light and medium panzer companies have their fair share of Pz IIs.
But how would these light tanks be deployed, would they move up in line with the heavier PZ IIIs and IVs?
Would they sit behind the battle line waiting to move through any breech in the enemy line.
I know that Rommel took his anti-tank guns with him into battle, but would Pz IIs and towed guns be open to enemy fire and artillery?
I would guess that the Pz II would be easy prey to even the lightest of weapons, so what would be the best way to deploy them.

Would the 10th Pz division contain the same amount of Pz IIs as the 15th and 21st PDs? I know they didn't arrive in Africa till after Torch, so would they have larger numbers of Pz III and IV specials and less numbers of Pz IIs?

Ian

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Urmel
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Re: Crusader OOB

Post by Urmel » 28 Jul 2019 17:08

Here is a full set of Middle East Command artillery numbers, excl. AAA and coastal. http://rommelsriposte.com/2019/07/28/5980
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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