2,644 british soldiers captured in Sicily?

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2,644 british soldiers captured in Sicily?

Post by Counter » 11 Sep 2020 15:14

The U.S. Seventh Army lost 8,781 men (2,237 killed or missing, 5,946 wounded, and 598 captured), while the British Eighth Army suffered 11,843 casualties (2,062 killed or missing, 7,137 wounded and 2,644 captured).

from wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_in ... d_landings

2,644 british soldiers captured by the Axis in the allied victory of Sicily seems to me an extremely high figure 8O , in which operations did that happen?

Thank you for any information about...

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Re: 2,644 british soldiers captured in Sicily?

Post by Andy H » 14 Sep 2020 21:56

Hi Counter

The main British casualties were from actions in and around the Plain of Catania.

Now the 1st British Parachute Bde was tasked with capturing the Primosole Bridge which was north of Lentini.
Its strength prior to landing was 1.856 but only 395 arrived near the drop zone. Now Im not saying the balance were all captured, but 48 (some 1400men) aircraft dropped them anywhere between 1/2mile to 20miles from the target. Thus there's a good chance that they make up the bulk of the 2644!

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Re: 2,644 british soldiers captured in Sicily?

Post by Counter » 15 Sep 2020 16:43

Thank you for the answer, Andy.

Apparently, a piecemeal paratroop disaster seems the only explanation of that figure. Just as example, the Dieppe landing -1942- was considered a big disaster, but the Axis made fewer allied prisoners in that case.

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Re: 2,644 british soldiers captured in Sicily?

Post by Richard Anderson » 15 Sep 2020 17:32

Andy H wrote:
14 Sep 2020 21:56
Hi Counter

The main British casualties were from actions in and around the Plain of Catania.

Now the 1st British Parachute Bde was tasked with capturing the Primosole Bridge which was north of Lentini.
Its strength prior to landing was 1.856 but only 395 arrived near the drop zone. Now Im not saying the balance were all captured, but 48 (some 1400men) aircraft dropped them anywhere between 1/2mile to 20miles from the target. Thus there's a good chance that they make up the bulk of the 2644!

Regards

Andy H
Nope. 1st Airborne Division only lost 23 officers and 593 OR in Sicily.

Eighth Army reported 2,644 MIA in HUSKY, not 2,644 captured. There is actually no report for the number captured. For the Americans, 598 of the 1,813 reported MIA were actually captured.
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

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Re: 2,644 british soldiers captured in Sicily?

Post by Andy H » 15 Sep 2020 19:52

Richard Anderson wrote:
15 Sep 2020 17:32
Andy H wrote:
14 Sep 2020 21:56
Hi Counter

The main British casualties were from actions in and around the Plain of Catania.

Now the 1st British Parachute Bde was tasked with capturing the Primosole Bridge which was north of Lentini.
Its strength prior to landing was 1.856 but only 395 arrived near the drop zone. Now Im not saying the balance were all captured, but 48 (some 1400men) aircraft dropped them anywhere between 1/2mile to 20miles from the target. Thus there's a good chance that they make up the bulk of the 2644!

Regards

Andy H
Nope. 1st Airborne Division only lost 23 officers and 593 OR in Sicily.

Eighth Army reported 2,644 MIA in HUSKY, not 2,644 captured. There is actually no report for the number captured. For the Americans, 598 of the 1,813 reported MIA were actually captured.
Hi Richard

I thought that most of the fatalities that befell 1st AB were during the initial assault (Operation Ladbroke?) nearly 300 dead!

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Andy H

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Re: 2,644 british soldiers captured in Sicily?

Post by Richard Anderson » 15 Sep 2020 20:12

Andy H wrote:
15 Sep 2020 19:52
I thought that most of the fatalities that befell 1st AB were during the initial assault (Operation Ladbroke?) nearly 300 dead!

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Andy H
Losses were given as 16 O and 128 OR killed, 30 O and 358 OR wounded, and 23 O and 593 OR missing as recorded in WO 162/295 as of "up to VE-Day". I suspect if there were nearly 300 dead it was in a postwar reconciliation of the MIA and would also possibly include some DOW.
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Re: 2,644 british soldiers captured in Sicily?

Post by Andy H » 15 Sep 2020 20:44

Richard Anderson wrote:
15 Sep 2020 20:12
Andy H wrote:
15 Sep 2020 19:52
I thought that most of the fatalities that befell 1st AB were during the initial assault (Operation Ladbroke?) nearly 300 dead!

Regards

Andy H
Losses were given as 16 O and 128 OR killed, 30 O and 358 OR wounded, and 23 O and 593 OR missing as recorded in WO 162/295 as of "up to VE-Day". I suspect if there were nearly 300 dead it was in a postwar reconciliation of the MIA and would also possibly include some DOW.
Hi Richard

I know its Wiki but in this they cite Reynolds, David (1998). Paras: An Illustrated History of Britain's Airborne Forces. Stroud, UK: Sutton Publishing as a reference for this:-
"Operations Ladbroke and Fustian had cost the British 1st Airborne Division 454 dead, 240 wounded and 102 missing"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Parac ... om)#Sicily

I don't have Reynolds book so I cant comment on his references or context.

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Andy H

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Re: 2,644 british soldiers captured in Sicily?

Post by Richard Anderson » 15 Sep 2020 21:28

Andy H wrote:
15 Sep 2020 20:44
I know its Wiki but in this they cite Reynolds, David (1998). Paras: An Illustrated History of Britain's Airborne Forces. Stroud, UK: Sutton Publishing as a reference for this:-
"Operations Ladbroke and Fustian had cost the British 1st Airborne Division 454 dead, 240 wounded and 102 missing"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Parac ... om)#Sicily

I don't have Reynolds book so I cant comment on his references or context.

Regards

Andy H
Nor do I, but it sounds fishy to me. Nearly two to one dead versus wounded? If those operations cost 1st Airborne 796 casualties, then where did thee other 342 come from?
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

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Re: 2,644 british soldiers captured in Sicily?

Post by Andy H » 15 Sep 2020 21:49

Hi Richard

Of the 1,730 men of the 1st Airlanding Brigade, however, 326 drowned.
The 1st Parachute Brigade returned to North Africa, having suffered some 295 casualties.
https://www.pegasusarchive.org/sicily/frames.htm

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Re: 2,644 british soldiers captured in Sicily?

Post by Richard Anderson » 15 Sep 2020 22:27

Andy H wrote:
15 Sep 2020 21:49
Hi Richard

Of the 1,730 men of the 1st Airlanding Brigade, however, 326 drowned.
Well, sure, they were most of the 616 missing I suspect.
The 1st Parachute Brigade returned to North Africa, having suffered some 295 casualties.
For those units reporting casualties we have:

2nd S Staffs - 54 KIA, 69 WIA, 21 MIA (believed killed), 203 MIA = 347

Border Regt - 43 officers and 753 OR's of 1 BORDER REGT took off in 72 Wacos...[of those] 44 came down in the sea, 20 in Sicily, 7 in Africa and 1 in Malta. On a personnel basis, this meant that 64% of the Bn came down in the sea, 25% in Sicily, and 11% in Africa and Malta. The 4 officers and 191 OR's who came down in Sicily suffered 18% casualties in landing, chiefly from handcarts which broke away from their lashing-points, and 12% casualties in action, a total of 30%. Of the 28 officers and 478 OR's who landed in the sea, 19% reached Sicily by swimming and then joined the land party, suffering casualties in action on a similar scale; 23% have been reported drowned, missing believed drowned, or missing; 1% were killed or wounded by enemy action at sea; and 57% were picked up in the sea, and returned to base

So - 35 casualties in landed and 23 in combat (unknown how many killed), 119 MIA (believed drowned), 5 KIA/WIA at sea, and 12 landed at sea, managed to get ashore and were KIA/WIA on land, so about 194 total.

2 Para Bde - 27 KIA, 75 WIA, 313 MIA (to 28 July 43) = 415

347+194+415 = 956, of which 656 MIA...not to far off from the figures in WO 162/295.
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

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Re: 2,644 british soldiers captured in Sicily?

Post by Counter » 16 Sep 2020 14:43

The U.S. Seventh Army lost 8,781 men (2,237 killed or missing, 5,946 wounded, and 598 captured), while the British Eighth Army suffered 11,843 casualties (2,062 killed or missing, 7,137 wounded and 2,644 captured).

So there was all a mistake of Wikipedia :D


Eighth Army reported 2,644 MIA in HUSKY, not 2,644 captured.


Thank you very much, that must be corrected...

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Re: 2,644 british soldiers captured in Sicily?

Post by Richard Anderson » 16 Sep 2020 15:48

Counter wrote:
16 Sep 2020 14:43
So there was all a mistake of Wikipedia :D
Wiki mistaken? Say its not so!
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

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