Crusader OOB

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MitteG
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Re: Crusader OOB

Post by MitteG » 15 Jan 2021 07:23

Great, thanks for sharing!

BTW, I posted a note on your article on 8 Hussar against 5 Pzrgt...
Monty: "Your men don't salute much."
Freyberg: "Well, if you wave to them, they'll usually wave back.

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Urmel
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Re: Crusader OOB

Post by Urmel » 23 Jan 2021 00:21

Thanks! Yes that's an error that needs to be corrected.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Urmel
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Re: Crusader OOB

Post by Urmel » 23 Jan 2021 00:22

diciassette2000 wrote:
14 Sep 2020 13:21
An explanation could be that the document that provides for a sappers company in the RECAM staff which was then the CAM regiment at the time of Crusader refers to the staff PLANNED for the unit by the Supreme Command. However, as is well known, this planned composition was never officially recognized, nor was the entire unit recognized, which therefore remained at a provisional level. Specifically, then the same was hastily put on the field not respecting that composition in fact and so he never had his company sappers. This evidence would also emerge from the diary of the unit which as of November 9, 1941 in its composition does not mention any unit of genius in its ranks ....
all the best
maurizio
Ciao Maurizio

Does that document state anything about the tanks in RECAM?
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

diciassette2000
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Re: Crusader OOB

Post by diciassette2000 » 23 Jan 2021 11:02

No, the document does not talk much about the tanks but based on my research on documents of the time and on the crossing of data on reliable books I can give you these elements:
As of November 1, 1941, the RECAM had the following troops available:
-Command
-1 truck-mounted machine gun company
- "Romolo Gessi" PAI Battalion on:
--Command
- an armored car company
--two gun companies
-52.o tank battalion M13 / 40 (in formation)
Note: Established in AS as a training department on 10/22/1941 with 9 M14 / 41 it was never considered however as an effectively constituted battalion. It was definitively dissolved on 8/8/1942.
-Grouping "flying batteries" with:
--command
--- 1.o 65/17 self-propelled artillery group on three batteries
--- 2nd 65/17 self-propelled artillery group on three batteries and a 20/35 anti-aircraft battery
--- 11. independent battery (self-propelled) from 65/17
--- 13. independent battery (self-propelled) from 100/17
--- 14.a independent 20mm anti-aircraft battery
On November 4th he added the GGFF Battalion Group on command, 1st and 2nd GGFF battalion, an L tank company of the III / 32.o and a platoon of 4 L6 tanks in experimental version just arrived in AS that was aggregated to the company wagons L.
At the end of March 1942 the RECAM was dissolved.
all the best
Maurizio

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David W
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Re: Crusader OOB

Post by David W » 23 Jan 2021 11:52

Hi Maurizio.

Do you know the composition of the two gun comapnies in Romolo Gessi at this time? As I thought that they were machine gun companies.

Thanks, David.

diciassette2000
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Re: Crusader OOB

Post by diciassette2000 » 23 Jan 2021 12:52

The official historiography calls them "compagnie motomitraglieri". Each company was on command and three gunner platoons (motomitraglieri). The PAI battalion did not have a fixed TOE but on the basis of official documents it can be deduced that part of the companies were self-supported while the rest were on motorcycles.
All the best
Maurizio

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David W
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Re: Crusader OOB

Post by David W » 23 Jan 2021 12:54

OK.. Thanks, so it was machine guns not guns, which I rightly or wrongly associate with artillery.
That clears it up. Thanks.

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Urmel
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Re: Crusader OOB

Post by Urmel » 31 Jan 2021 16:50

diciassette2000 wrote:
23 Jan 2021 11:02
No, the document does not talk much about the tanks but based on my research on documents of the time and on the crossing of data on reliable books I can give you these elements:
As of November 1, 1941, the RECAM had the following troops available:
-Command
-1 truck-mounted machine gun company
- "Romolo Gessi" PAI Battalion on:
--Command
- an armored car company
--two gun companies
-52.o tank battalion M13 / 40 (in formation)
Note: Established in AS as a training department on 10/22/1941 with 9 M14 / 41 it was never considered however as an effectively constituted battalion. It was definitively dissolved on 8/8/1942.
-Grouping "flying batteries" with:
--command
--- 1.o 65/17 self-propelled artillery group on three batteries
--- 2nd 65/17 self-propelled artillery group on three batteries and a 20/35 anti-aircraft battery
--- 11. independent battery (self-propelled) from 65/17
--- 13. independent battery (self-propelled) from 100/17
--- 14.a independent 20mm anti-aircraft battery
On November 4th he added the GGFF Battalion Group on command, 1st and 2nd GGFF battalion, an L tank company of the III / 32.o and a platoon of 4 L6 tanks in experimental version just arrived in AS that was aggregated to the company wagons L.
At the end of March 1942 the RECAM was dissolved.
all the best
Maurizio
Grazie Maurizio, that is super helpful.

RECAM was not working with Ariete during Crusader, right?

The tanks were almost certainly used to reinforce Ariete later in the campaign. I am guessing this was the training establishment at Agedabia?
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

diciassette2000
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Re: Crusader OOB

Post by diciassette2000 » 31 Jan 2021 19:54

If you are referring to those of the 52nd battalion yes ..... the rest was small ...... the RECAM was functional to the Motorized Army Corps and was a unit in its own right ... If you can help, the PAI armored cars were Ab40 (10) which among other things were partly lost by friendly fire shortly thereafter ...... Both the flying batteries and the GGFFs as well as the 52. or battalion had to become in the mind of the Italian Supreme Command part of the new .... but never made .... 135.a Armored Division GGFF ...
All the best
Maurizio

diciassette2000
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Re: Crusader OOB

Post by diciassette2000 » 01 Feb 2021 09:42

OOOPHS .... My mistake dont Motorized Army Corp but Corpo d'Armata di Manovra.....
All the best
Maurizio

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jurisnik
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Re: Crusader OOB

Post by jurisnik » 06 Feb 2021 17:27

Hi all! I see that the post I've originally posted 10 years ago has really sparked a lot of interest. Operation Crusader really deserves it, since it was one of those close-cut affairs during that campaign. Thank you all for your effort and sharing of your knowledge, it helped me a lot.
My original idea was to make a wargame on the subject of the whole North African campaign. I'm happy to say that the game is nearing release and that I can share more details with you. I've tried to be as accurate as possible and to represent the actual orders of battle and historical dispositions, to allow the game to simulate the operations and battles in detail. If you're interested, you can check the website on this link: https://www.attackatdawn.com/

There, you will find my description on the game, and you can see the trailer and add the game to your STEAM wishlist. Thanks again for your help, it gave me the insight I needed to pull this game through.

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Urmel
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Re: Crusader OOB

Post by Urmel » 07 Feb 2021 11:19

Glad this was helpful and hope your game is a commercial success!
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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jurisnik
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Re: Crusader OOB

Post by jurisnik » 07 Feb 2021 11:57

Urmel wrote:
07 Feb 2021 11:19
Glad this was helpful and hope your game is a commercial success!
Thanks again! I'll try to mimic the actual orders of battle as much as possible. Operation Crusader is one of the most interesting episodes in this campaign, and we owe it to those who fought to tell their story accurately.

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