Allied supply tonnage to MTO Nov 41>

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Carl Schwamberger
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Allied supply tonnage to MTO Nov 41>

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 20 Nov 2021 20:09

Anyone able to point to sources for Allied material sent to the MTO? I looking specifically for that sent from the start of Op TORCH through mid 1944, tho numbers earlier & later are welcome. Trying refine slightly comparisons for material sent to different fronts.

Thanks for any referrals or napkin sketches.

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Re: Allied supply tonnage to MTO Nov 41>

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 21 Nov 2021 17:43

Hi Carl,

I haven't seen any overall statistics but came across this snippet of information in the UK Shipping Committee's second report of 21 Jul 42 which I thought might be of interest:
CAB66-26-40 - 2nd Report Shipping Committee - 21 Jul 42 - food allowance in theatre.JPG
I'm gradually working through the British War Cabinet papers so will post up anything of relevance as I come across it.

Regards

Tom
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Re: Allied supply tonnage to MTO Nov 41>

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 21 Nov 2021 21:38

Thanks Tom

That comes out to 1178 tons per division slice of 38,000 men, daily. Fairly high, but it probably included items not included in the OVERLORD calculation of 900 tons for a 44,000 man slice, or others allowances. Trying to estimate this working backwards from tons delivered or other methods is useful, but has its limits. But, working from the estimate above gives you close to five million tons annually for a army group of ten divisions with air and service support, or 380,000 men. A one million man force, including naval bases, local naval forces, the full service & support echelon might be 11,315,000 tons material. Which I cant guess is too high or low.

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Re: Allied supply tonnage to MTO Nov 41>

Post by TheMarcksPlan » 22 Nov 2021 08:33

Carl Schwamberger wrote: A one million man force, including naval bases, local naval forces, the full service & support echelon might be 11,315,000 tons material.
Be careful not to assume that a larger force would be able to get ~half its food locally, as with a smaller force. This is the difference between percentage and absolute values. Assuming that The Empire was extracting as much as it could from poor locals OTL, the absolute value of food supplied is probably the maximum. The Mideast Supply Center was a pretty efficient organization; there was probably negligible slack in its ability to supply locally-sourced food. For forces larger than the historical 380k (assuming that's right), you probably need to ship nearly all the food eaten by additional troops.
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Re: Allied supply tonnage to MTO Nov 41>

Post by Gooner1 » 22 Nov 2021 15:42

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
20 Nov 2021 20:09
Anyone able to point to sources for Allied material sent to the MTO? I looking specifically for that sent from the start of Op TORCH through mid 1944, tho numbers earlier & later are welcome. Trying refine slightly comparisons for material sent to different fronts.

Thanks for any referrals or napkin sketches.
There are bits and pieces scattered through the British OH 'The Mediterranean and the Middle East'.
From Volume VI Part I for instance:

Cargo (tons) discharged in Italian Ports:
Heel Ports (Taranto, Gallipoli, Brindisi, Monopoli, Barletta)
January 1944: 346,494
February : 318,757
March: 312,234
April: 315,682
Naples group of ports (Naples, Salerno, Castellammare, Torre Annunziata)
January: Unrecorded (98,379 British only)
February: Unrecorded (144,178 British only)
March: 527,316 (252,996 British)
April 516,061 ((170,999 British)

Also, 353,601 tons discharged at Anzio in that time.

In the conference of 28th February 1944 .. "Sir Brian Robertson [Chief Administrative Officer Allied Armies Italy] summed up some adminsitrative matters. He believed it was just possible to maintain a force of 28 divisions, in view of the good performance of the Naples group of ports. He based his calculations on a force of sixteen British divisions(or their equivalent) at a daily rate of 620 tons of maintenance stores per division and 12 American or French divisions at a daily rate of 730 tons per division. He added 12.5 per cent of these tonnages to go towards reserves, as well as a daily quantity of 10,500 tons required for the essential needs of the Italian population."

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Re: Allied supply tonnage to MTO Nov 41>

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 23 Nov 2021 00:09

Gooner1 wrote:
22 Nov 2021 15:42
Carl Schwamberger wrote:
20 Nov 2021 20:09
Anyone able to point to sources for Allied material sent to the MTO? I looking specifically for that sent from the start of Op TORCH through mid 1944, tho numbers earlier & later are welcome. Trying refine slightly comparisons for material sent to different fronts.

Thanks for any referrals or napkin sketches.
There are bits and pieces scattered through the British OH 'The Mediterranean and the Middle East'.
From Volume VI Part I for instance: ...
I'll look for that book, thanks.

Elsewhere I acquired a estimate for grain imports for the Italian population. The corespondent claimed most or all of that was delivered in Italian cargo ships.

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Re: Allied supply tonnage to MTO Nov 41>

Post by Gooner1 » 23 Nov 2021 13:00

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
20 Nov 2021 20:09
Anyone able to point to sources for Allied material sent to the MTO? I looking specifically for that sent from the start of Op TORCH through mid 1944, tho numbers earlier & later are welcome. Trying refine slightly comparisons for material sent to different fronts.

Thanks for any referrals or napkin sketches.
From the British OH 'The Mediterranean and the Middle East Vol V.
"Consumption of oil products was large, and between July 1943 and June 1944 about 6.5 million tons in bulk and 350,000 packaged tons [in 75 large tankers] were shipped to the Mediterranean theatre."

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Re: Allied supply tonnage to MTO Nov 41>

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 24 Nov 2021 20:33

TheMarcksPlan wrote:
22 Nov 2021 08:33
Be careful not to assume that a larger force would be able to get ~half its food locally, as with a smaller force. This is the difference between percentage and absolute values. Assuming that The Empire was extracting as much as it could from poor locals OTL, the absolute value of food supplied is probably the maximum.
Yep, assume nothing.

But might be of interest that between mid-Oct 43 and the end of Jan 44, 130,000 tons of barley were shipped from Iraq to India (source: CAB66/46/13).

Regards

Tom

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Re: Allied supply tonnage to MTO Nov 41>

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 25 Nov 2021 17:16

Tom from Cornwall wrote:
24 Nov 2021 20:33
...

But might be of interest that between mid-Oct 43 and the end of Jan 44, 130,000 tons of barley were shipped from Iraq to India (source: CAB66/46/13).

Regards

Tom
Its these details that make estimating so problematic.

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Re: Allied supply tonnage to MTO Nov 41>

Post by TheMarcksPlan » 29 Nov 2021 04:57

Tom from Cornwall wrote:
24 Nov 2021 20:33
TheMarcksPlan wrote:
22 Nov 2021 08:33
Be careful not to assume that a larger force would be able to get ~half its food locally, as with a smaller force. This is the difference between percentage and absolute values. Assuming that The Empire was extracting as much as it could from poor locals OTL, the absolute value of food supplied is probably the maximum.
Yep, assume nothing.

But might be of interest that between mid-Oct 43 and the end of Jan 44, 130,000 tons of barley were shipped from Iraq to India (source: CAB66/46/13).

Regards

Tom
By then the in-theater military demand would have been lower and/or satisfied by shipping that didn't have to round Africa. Meanwhile the British were belatedly addressing famine in India.
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Re: Allied supply tonnage to MTO Nov 41>

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 29 Nov 2021 20:49

TheMarcksPlan wrote:
29 Nov 2021 04:57
By then the in-theater military demand would have been lower and/or satisfied by shipping that didn't have to round Africa.
Is that an assumption? Or have you got a source that demonstrates that that is what actually happened to help Carl?

It may also be worth noting that on 6 March 1943 the British War Cabinet was informed that subject to the shipment of 10,000 tons of nitrates to Egypt monthly for 6 months from April 1943, the Egyptian Government were willing "to release 150,000 tons of rice and cereals for export" from "Egypt's surplus rice and cereals".

The telegram from the Minister of State in Cairo to Churchill dated 6 Mar 43, though, does start with (source: CAB66/35/1):
I am disturbed about allocation of shipping from North America for civil supplies for the Middle East.
2. Civil supplies for this area have already been cut to the bone, as I have already emphasised in telegrams to London (see my telegram No.2 Mast to Lord Leathers). Civil programme of loadings from North America for Red Sea area is now 23,400 tons per mensem. 20,000 tons is cereals, of which 8,000 tons are for fighting services.
I had to look up "per mensem" which means every month or by the month - every day is a learning day for me! :D
TheMarcksPlan wrote:
29 Nov 2021 04:57
Meanwhile the British were belatedly addressing famine in India.
Well, up to a point.

The shipment of food grains to India over the winter of 43-44 was actually conducted in order "to give the necessary time" for a review to be made of the success or otherwise of the Indian harvests. In the Memo I mentioned previously (W.P. (44) 63 dated 28 Jan 44), it is stated that current estimates were that there had been an improvement in the rice harvest "of round about 2 million tons in yield". Despite the improvement in the rice harvest, there had been a lack of rain in the Punjab which was "threatening a partial failure of the wheat crop in the spring".

The Secretary of State for India was, therefore, demanding imports "made up of 1,000,000 tons per annum [of grains] for current consumption and an additional 500,000 tons this year for the formation of a reserve in the hands of the Centre". Amery also passed on Lord Wavell's warning that:
Throughout 1944 I shall have a hard struggle to hold prices and to stave off shortages and actual famine. I may not be able to prove this to the satisfaction of the War Cabinet, but the facts are quite evident here. Please tell your colleagues that they have been warned.
I'll add other snippets about supplies to Middle East as I stumble across them.

Regards

Tom

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Re: Allied supply tonnage to MTO Nov 41>

Post by TheMarcksPlan » 30 Nov 2021 02:33

Tom from Cornwall wrote:Is that an assumption? Or have you got a source that demonstrates that that is what actually happened to help Carl?
An inference from the fact that, by Oct 43, Britain wasn't shipping Med/ME supplies round Africa. Given this fact, ME food status in Fall 43 (military+civilian) is analytically different from 1942. Of course all that is subject to rebuttal by actual figures for 1942 ME food surplus but we don't have those.

...which is why I said don't assume that OTL supply percentages could be had for a bigger ATL 1942 force. Neither we should we assume they couldn't be had but it seems unlikely.
Tom from Cornwall wrote:The Secretary of State for India was, therefore, demanding imports "made up of 1,000,000 tons per annum [of grains] for current consumption and an additional 500,000 tons this year for the formation of a reserve in the hands of the Centre". Amery also passed on Lord Wavell's warning
When Leo Amery is seeking help for India you know things are dire.
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Re: Allied supply tonnage to MTO Nov 41>

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 03 Dec 2021 19:02

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
20 Nov 2021 20:09
Anyone able to point to sources for Allied material sent to the MTO?
Hi Carl,

Another snippet from British War Cabinet papers - this time from March 1943:
CAB66-35-4 - Civil Requirements for the ME - 9 Mar 43.JPG
At the same time, there was a discussion about the release of 50,000 tons of grains monthly for Turkey. As I move forward through the War Cabinet documents I'll see whether the programme for 40 ships per month held and whether the supplies for Turkey materialised and, if so, how they were carried.
Carl Schwamberger wrote:
25 Nov 2021 17:16
Its these details that make estimating so problematic.
Yes, and as the strategic situation changes (Mediterranean opened, Soviet southern front held, losses of shipping less than expected, etc) so the shipping programme changed and more shipping seems to have come available. Still lots of pressing options all calling out for fulfilment though.

Regards

Tom
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Re: Allied supply tonnage to MTO Nov 41>

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 03 Dec 2021 20:58

Another piece of this 300 bit puzzle. Thanks sincerely tom for looking at this.

To reverse the inquiry: A nominal 13 Allied Divisions in Tunisia, Algeria, and Morocco in January 1943 could require 900 tons daily per division slice. That is for them, the Army overhead, the airfares, and other support. That would be 11,700 tons daily & 351,000 tons for January. At the paper capacity of 10,000 long tons for a Liberty ship that would be nominally 35 docking in January.

Generally the 'division slice' method of calculation does not include naval requirements, so there is some unknown number above this to sustain the fleet from the MTO side of the war.
At the same time, there was a discussion about the release of 50,000 tons of grains monthly for Turkey. As I move forward through the War Cabinet documents I'll see whether the programme for 40 ships per month held and whether the supplies for Turkey materialised and, if so, how they were carried.
Five Liberty ships for this 50,000 tons grain?

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Re: Allied supply tonnage to MTO Nov 41>

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 04 Dec 2021 17:59

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
03 Dec 2021 20:58
Five Liberty ships for this 50,000 tons grain?
It looks like the cereal for Turkey was actually released from central Middle East stocks and then back-filled (source: CAB66/35/41).

That paper comprises a note by the UK Minister of War Transport that details planning to move 230,000 tons and 8,000 vehicles into Turkey in the last 5 months of 1943. The sources were a combination of North America, UK and local Middle East (the latter covering both surplus and captured war material, and civil supplies). There were plans to ship coal and oil products in addition to that figure.

Again, hopefully there will be more about actual shipments as I work forward through the War Cabinet papers.

Regards

Tom

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