Gazala OoB

Discussions on WW2 in Africa & the Mediterranean. Hosted by Andy H
User avatar
Oasis
Member
Posts: 604
Joined: 29 Jun 2006 17:42
Location: Central Italy

Post by Oasis » 20 Jul 2007 19:07

Brad Hunter wrote:AXIS ORDER OF BATTLE - THE GAZALA CAMPAIGN – “CASE VENEZIA”
May 26th, 1942

----Reggimento Articelere 1. (motorized)
------Battaglione Artiglieria 1./1C. – 12 x 75/27mm Gun
------Battaglione Artiglieria 2./1C. – 12 x 75/27mm Gun
------Battaglione Artiglieria 3./1C. – 12 x 100/17mm How.
------Battaglione Artiglieria 4./1C. – 12 x 100/17mm How.
------Battaglione Controaerea 5./1C. – 8 x 88mm Flak
------Compagnie Controaerea 401. – 8 x 20mm AA
------Compagnie Controaerea 404. – 8 x 20mm AA
----Battaglione Genio Misto 27.
Probably you already know, but with regard to artillery forces italian correct terminology is:
Gruppo for "battaglione"
Batteria for "compagnia"

Ciao

Oasis

v-ger
Member
Posts: 19
Joined: 26 Mar 2006 06:54
Location: underway

Post by v-ger » 11 Aug 2007 08:12

What I'm missing in German orbats here, are 117 Marder III tank destroyers (Russian 76.2mm gun rechambered to take German 75mm ammo, on PzKpfw 38T chassis), as well as self-propelled 150mm sIG mounted on obsolete French chassis, sent to Africa in May 1942.

Which units operated them?

User avatar
David W
Member
Posts: 3467
Joined: 28 Mar 2004 01:30
Location: Devon, England

Post by David W » 11 Aug 2007 23:36

V ger.

The Marders were distributed as follows in 1942.......

July.
3 in D.A.K HQ.
4 in 39th Pz Jag Abt.
6 in 33rd Pz Jag Abt.

September.
3 in 220th AufK Abt.
15 in 33rd Pz Jag Abt.

November.
24 in 39th Pz Jag Abt.

The rest arrived in 1943, for which I don't have details.


The SdKfz135/1 Lorraines were distributed as follows in 1942.

10 to S.fl Batteries 155th Panzer Artillerie Regiment (21st Pz Div) in Late July .

11 to S.fl Batteries 33rd Artillerie Regiment (15th Pz Div) in early August. + 2 more in late August.

v-ger
Member
Posts: 19
Joined: 26 Mar 2006 06:54
Location: underway

Post by v-ger » 15 Aug 2007 11:14

Thanks David, great details!

So, there were no 117 of Marders at once there?

The figure, BTW, is from Bryan Perrett's "Desert Warfare": I guess the author somehow summarized all the Marders ever delivered to German units in Africa.

BTW, were there six or nine Russian 76.2mm KK36(r) AT-guns, mounted on SdKfz.6 chassis (and that together with their lafettes, including wheels), serving with the PzJägAbt.605 at the time of Gazalla?

Finally, has anybody a clue how many towed KK36s have been deployed with Panzerjägerzugs of various German PGRs at the time? At least the PGR.104 is known to have had two during the 1st Alamein.

User avatar
David W
Member
Posts: 3467
Joined: 28 Mar 2004 01:30
Location: Devon, England

Post by David W » 15 Aug 2007 23:43

v-ger.


So, there were no 117 of Marders at once there?
Correct, there were not.




BTW, were there six or nine Russian 76.2mm KK36(r) AT-guns, mounted on SdKfz.6 chassis (and that together with their lafettes, including wheels), serving with the PzJägAbt.605 at the time of Gazalla?
Difficult to answer. There were 6 in January, + 3 in February. For there to have been 9 at Gazala, they would all have needed to have survived until then. So in short, I don't know!



Finally, has anybody a clue how many towed KK36s have been deployed with Panzerjägerzugs of various German PGRs at the time? At least the PGR.104 is known to have had two during the 1st Alamein.
Another difficult one to answer. The full establishment of 7.62cm(r) PaK was never reached, not even close, in either 1942 or 1943.Shipping details for PaK are very difficult to find. Especially for the Russian gun. I hope that someone else can help you with this one. I would be equally as interested in their answer.

User avatar
Helen Bachaus
Member
Posts: 117
Joined: 22 Dec 2006 07:03
Location: Canberra, Australia

Re: Gazala OoB

Post by Helen Bachaus » 08 Mar 2008 06:10

Hi,

is it possible going by the hyperlink I've pasted below that the German Gebrigsjager mountain battery were equipped with these lovely 7.5 cm G15s at Gazala and prior to Tunisia?

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s266 ... un/004.jpg

God Bless

Helen

User avatar
Oasis
Member
Posts: 604
Joined: 29 Jun 2006 17:42
Location: Central Italy

Re: Gazala OoB

Post by Oasis » 08 Mar 2008 18:59

Hi Brad,
you wrote:

Divisione Fanteria 27. "Brescia" - Lombardi
----Reggimento Fanteria 19. (AS42)
------Battaglione Fanteria 1./19. – 4 x Compagnie Fucilieri
------Battaglione Fanteria 2./19. – 4 x Compagnie Fucilieri
------Battaglione Fanteria 3./19. – 4 x Compagnie Fucilieri
------Compagnie Mortai – 6 x 81mm Mortar
----Reggimento Fanteria 20. (AS42)
------Battaglione Fanteria 1./20. – 4 x Compagnie Fucilieri
------Battaglione Fanteria 2./20. – 4 x Compagnie Fucilieri
------Battaglione Fanteria 3./20. – 4 x Compagnie Fucilieri
------Compagnie Mortai – 6 x 81mm Mortar
----Reggimento Articelere 1. (motorized)
------Battaglione Artiglieria 1./1C. – 12 x 75/27mm Gun
------Battaglione Artiglieria 2./1C. – 12 x 75/27mm Gun
------Battaglione Artiglieria 3./1C. – 12 x 100/17mm How.
------Battaglione Artiglieria 4./1C. – 12 x 100/17mm How.
------Battaglione Controaerea 5./1C. – 8 x 88mm Flak
------Compagnie Controaerea 401. – 8 x 20mm AA
------Compagnie Controaerea 404. – 8 x 20mm AA
----Battaglione Genio Misto 27.

with ref to 1. Articelere was correct:

----Reggimento Articelere 1. (motorized)
------Gruppo Artiglieria 1./1C. – 12 x 100/17mm How
------Gruppo Artiglieria 2./1C. – 6 x 100/17mm How
------Gruppo Artiglieria 3./1C. – 12 x 75/27 mm Gun
------Gruppo Artiglieria 4./1C. – 12 x 75/27mm Gun
------Gruppo Controaerea/Controcarro 5./1C. – 8 x 88mm Flak
------Batteria Controaerea 401. – 8 x 20mm AA
------Batteria Controaerea 404. – 8 x 20mm AA

Best regards
Toni

eduard
Member
Posts: 48
Joined: 31 Oct 2002 17:32
Location: spain

Re: Gazala OoB and 90th light

Post by eduard » 20 Jul 2009 13:10

Nice order of battle for this confussing series of battles.

Reading about the Gazala Battle i'm always confussed by the operations of 90 light division.

For example, on the first day of the battle this unit did overun RETMA box of the 7th motorised Brigade.
True, the RETMA box was not ready. Wire, mines, etc were not complete.
The accounts of this engagement for example the Rodeshian AT gunners say that the attack was made by tanks. But Which tanks. theorically 90th light did not have any tanks.

Maybe they took for tanks the Armoured cars of 580 AA co., the Panzerjager I, and the Diana's from 605th Pzj.Abt. or the sdkfz 10/4 of the 606th pz AA. abt. In any case vehicles very vulnerable to do an overun attack aganist 6 pdr's aT guns and 25 pdrs. field guns.

Maybe the Kasta, , but also very few tanks included and pz II??

Any possible answer ??

Thanks

Eduard

Zabs82
Member
Posts: 39
Joined: 20 Jan 2009 14:06
Location: Lublin, Poland

Re: Gazala OoB

Post by Zabs82 » 20 Jul 2009 17:18

" On the right wing Kleemann's 90th Light Division, with the reconnaissance units, would strike north-east from Hacheim for El Adem and Belhamed, acompanied by special vehicles equipped with aero-engines to raise dust clouds, giving the impression that they were tanks"

M. Carver " Tobruk" p. 171


This recce Unit it might be 33 Aufkl.Abt, as it was runnig on Kleemann left flank. But on the other side it might be (this 33 Aufkl.Abt.) also part of 15 PzDiv, as it was running next to 90 Light Div.


But when when we look, on 'Gazala" maps we can see, that 15 PzDiv turns northward much earlier than 90 Light Div. Farther Carver describes that, 33 Aufkl.Abt ran headlong into 7 Armoured Div HQ. ( Messervy in pyjamas). So it might be 33 Aufkl.Abt. But only might.

eduard
Member
Posts: 48
Joined: 31 Oct 2002 17:32
Location: spain

Re: Gazala OoB

Post by eduard » 21 Jul 2009 09:03

thanks Zabs

Yes 33AA makes sense someway. It could move faster than 605 pja and its armoured cars and 250/10 (25mm hotschkis) may pass like tanks. Don't know exact numbers of armoured cars but I imagine from 20 to 25 armoured vehicles in all.

I've read reports from 605 pjA referring to the need to move slowly and make frequent stops in order to maintain the panzerjagers I operative. Also the Dianas look overweight so not very fast.

The 33AA had received early in May 42 10 sdkfz's 250 armed with the french AT gun of 25mm. I've seen a picture of one of them but little info about them. They seem to have dissapeared before Alamein.

The British in RETMA seems to have suffered few loses, just disorganisation suffered during the "retreat" to Bir gobi. The Rodeshian AT gunners lost about 2 crews but were rescued a few hours later.

In maps from fifferetn books it looks like 90th light passed to the south of RETMA but also 33AA. ???

User avatar
David W
Member
Posts: 3467
Joined: 28 Mar 2004 01:30
Location: Devon, England

Re: Gazala OoB

Post by David W » 21 Jul 2009 09:52

Eduard.

I had heard of 33AA receiving 10x SdKfz 250 c/w 25mm Hotchkis. But not until August 1942. Can you confirm the date in May for me please?

Re: the PzSpWg Schw/Komp in 33AA. The "Zoll" should have been 9x 221. 6x 231. 7x 222.

Re: SdKfz 250 c/w 25mm Hotchkis. My understanding was that the /10 was c/w 37mm PaK, and that the 25mm & 28mm armed versions were classified /11. Can anyone confirm?

Re: 33AA. I have heard of an additional 10x 7.5cm Le/IG arriving somewhen. But have no evidence or date, can anyone confirm/deny this?

eduard
Member
Posts: 48
Joined: 31 Oct 2002 17:32
Location: spain

Re: Gazala OoB

Post by eduard » 21 Jul 2009 10:45

David,

The info about the 10 250's of 33 AA came from "Rommel's AfriKa Korps: tobruk to Alamein". P.P Battistelli. Actually is the first time I ever knew this rare specimens did exist. There are just one picture, I've never seen another one. And the May date He gives. Also I've never seen them mentioned again.

The denomiation Sdkfz 250/10 is mine. In fact the 250/10's is the official denomination of the 37mm armed 250. So its my fault.

"Armoured cars charging the "british" with their 6 pdr's AT guns is courage.... I imagine the german unit seeing a concentration of trucks and going to intercept. Uncknown to them some of the trucks are 6 pdr's portees that fire back with the help of maybe a Battery of 25 pdrs. The infantry of the motor battalions, lacking mines and trenches just mount their transports and flee in any posible direction....followed by the 25 pdrs.... a short firefight... a few prisoners and trucks captured...." just a guess

Eduard

User avatar
David W
Member
Posts: 3467
Joined: 28 Mar 2004 01:30
Location: Devon, England

Re: Gazala OoB

Post by David W » 21 Jul 2009 10:57

info about the 10 250's of 33 AA came from "Rommel's AfriKa Korps: tobruk to Alamein". P.P Battistelli. Actually is the first time I ever knew this rare specimens did exist. There are just one picture, I've never seen another one. And the May date He gives. Also I've never seen them mentioned again.
Thanks.

PS Have you heard of the 10x 7.5 Le/IG?

eduard
Member
Posts: 48
Joined: 31 Oct 2002 17:32
Location: spain

Re: Gazala OoB

Post by eduard » 21 Jul 2009 11:04

Sorry, no.

I will check the mentioned book because it gives some details of the equipement of the different units at some dates. It surprises me that they were 75mm german light guns of the 18 series.

Maybe they were russian 76mm field howitzers. Some of them appear in use by the 361 artillery regiment.

Eduard

eduard
Member
Posts: 48
Joined: 31 Oct 2002 17:32
Location: spain

Re: Gazala OoB

Post by eduard » 24 Jul 2009 09:35

David,

I've found in Battistelli, that the IG co for 361 inf. regt was espected in August.
Meanwhile 200 inf regt and 155 ing regt were equipped (suported) as IG co. with the nearly never operational 707 and 708 self IG co's equipped with 150mm HIG mounted in modified Pz II chassis.

I don't know if it was finally received, and wich guns were used but I doubt there were 10 LIG 18.

eduard

Return to “WW2 in Africa & the Mediterranean”