Searching in Google Earth, i found the almost invisible Whisky Piste that leaded to the italian trenches/fortifications east of El Mreir and south of Ruweisat.
At about Lat 30.68° Long 28.84° are visible round spots 10m about diameter disposed crescent like where should have been the stronghold of Brescia division - they repeat in disposal also in the northeast area Lat 30.67° Long 28.90° where it is supposed was the stronghold of bersaglieri XXXI. Btn on the night 14-15 july.
Maybe they are remnants of fortified places (mine-fields, outpost, etc) or they are something else.
Who knows something about this ??
Italo-German frontline south of Ruweisat July'42
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Oasis
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Italo-German frontline south of Ruweisat July'42
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macavellian
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Oasis
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22DBty
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re features on google earth
I agree they look too regularly arranged for atillery shell craters (and likely too big at 10m across), but they could possibly be bomb craters (might explain large size and regular arrangement), eg from a stuka raid or other aerial bombing (there was a lot of bombing of the Alamein lines at times).
More likely though from the arrangement is that they are the remains of small fortifications /outposts, possibly sand bagged or dug out with machinery and the dirt piled around the edge (the ground was often quite hard and rocky in the area south of Alamein and often needed machinery such as jackhammers to dig positions) for machine gun posts / mortars or anti tank guns or field artillery, all of which were posted in that general area by both axis and allies at times.
My father fought near and in El Mreir depression on 21st/22nd July 42 with the New Zealand 25th Inf Bn, 6th Bde, who were almost wiped out that day by Italian forces and German 21st and 15th Pz Divs, and his diary entries report Stuka raids in the area on 22nd July. He was one of only 11 of his Coy, and only 158 of his Bn that made it back from that battle. He had been part of a successful Bde sized infantry night attack from the south into El Mreir and then watched his Bn overrun and scattered just before dawn when the Axis forces, including much armour counterattacked (British armour had refused to come to support the NZ infantry until daylight, which left the NZer's very bitter afterwards). He then watched at close range the later tank battle at daybreak from a hiding place tucked up under the escarpment on the edge of El Mreir (during which British 23rd Armrd Bde was destroyed, and in which a german anti tank gunner won the Knights Cross, the first german enlisted man in WW2 to do so). He sneaked away in the late afternoon after hiding all day, and made it back to the allied lines that night, along with just a handful of others from his Company and Bn. His route back to safety would have been east from El Mreir, south of Ruweisat ridge, possibly very close to the area of your photo.
More likely though from the arrangement is that they are the remains of small fortifications /outposts, possibly sand bagged or dug out with machinery and the dirt piled around the edge (the ground was often quite hard and rocky in the area south of Alamein and often needed machinery such as jackhammers to dig positions) for machine gun posts / mortars or anti tank guns or field artillery, all of which were posted in that general area by both axis and allies at times.
My father fought near and in El Mreir depression on 21st/22nd July 42 with the New Zealand 25th Inf Bn, 6th Bde, who were almost wiped out that day by Italian forces and German 21st and 15th Pz Divs, and his diary entries report Stuka raids in the area on 22nd July. He was one of only 11 of his Coy, and only 158 of his Bn that made it back from that battle. He had been part of a successful Bde sized infantry night attack from the south into El Mreir and then watched his Bn overrun and scattered just before dawn when the Axis forces, including much armour counterattacked (British armour had refused to come to support the NZ infantry until daylight, which left the NZer's very bitter afterwards). He then watched at close range the later tank battle at daybreak from a hiding place tucked up under the escarpment on the edge of El Mreir (during which British 23rd Armrd Bde was destroyed, and in which a german anti tank gunner won the Knights Cross, the first german enlisted man in WW2 to do so). He sneaked away in the late afternoon after hiding all day, and made it back to the allied lines that night, along with just a handful of others from his Company and Bn. His route back to safety would have been east from El Mreir, south of Ruweisat ridge, possibly very close to the area of your photo.
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22DBty
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features on google earth
I think your google earth features are in (or near) a feature called "Stuka Wadi" by the allies.
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Oasis
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Re: features on google earth
Hi 22DBty22DBty wrote:I think your google earth features are in (or near) a feature called "Stuka Wadi" by the allies.
there are similar crescent-like arrangements in other parts of the southern area at Alamein, and I think possible they are old strongpoints (too regular for bomb craters...).
With regard to your father near El Mreir Depression, my father fought in the same area (I suppose Alam Dihmainya) on the 14th july when Kiwis overrun Brescia strongpoints.
I think our fathers now could be friends...
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22DBty
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Hi Oasis,
I am quite sure our father's could have been friends now. My Dad died in 2002 aged 85. He had no animosity to his former enemies in North Africa, although he was haunted the rest of his life by the things he saw done, and had to do himself, and had nightmares even 60 years later about the New Zealnd bayonet attacks he had taken part in.
I am sure the features seen on Google earth are former strongpoints, and from the location of them, they could well be some of the strongpoints occupied by your father's Brescia Div that night of 14th July when the NZers overran them. The location would be correct for that battle.
Did you know that after overunning Brescia that night of 14th July (NZ 4th and 5th Bdes did that, my Dad was in 6th Bde), the next day the NZ infantry was left exposed on Ruweisat ridge ( a place where it was impossible to dig in as the ground was all hard rock) and was itself overrun by German tanks. The NZ 4th Bde which had overrun Brescia the night before was virtually wiped out that day when expected supporting British Armour didnt arrive and German tanks rolled through the NZ positions. 4th Bde never fought another major battle in its original form, and was reformed as an Armoured Brigade with its own tanks so that the NZers wouldnt have to depend on British armour again.
My father's 6th Bde was then almost wiped out the next week just to the west of here in El Mreir on 21/22 July in a similar circumstance, after a successful night attack on german and Italian positions, followed by a dawn counterattack by German armour and german and Italian infantry, when yet again British armour failed to arrive in support until it was too late. When the Brit armour (23rd Armrd Bde) did arrive they showed great bravery but were wiped out very quickly by the german armour and artillery as they were raw green troops who had just arrived in Egypt (they lost over 90 tanks in less than 2 hours).
I was in Italy with my wife just 3 months ago, spending two weeks there in September, visiting Venezia, Firenze, Siena, Amalfi, Capri, and Roma, and seeing much of the country from trains as we travlled through it. You have a beautiful country and we enjoyed our time there on holiday greatly.
I am quite sure our father's could have been friends now. My Dad died in 2002 aged 85. He had no animosity to his former enemies in North Africa, although he was haunted the rest of his life by the things he saw done, and had to do himself, and had nightmares even 60 years later about the New Zealnd bayonet attacks he had taken part in.
I am sure the features seen on Google earth are former strongpoints, and from the location of them, they could well be some of the strongpoints occupied by your father's Brescia Div that night of 14th July when the NZers overran them. The location would be correct for that battle.
Did you know that after overunning Brescia that night of 14th July (NZ 4th and 5th Bdes did that, my Dad was in 6th Bde), the next day the NZ infantry was left exposed on Ruweisat ridge ( a place where it was impossible to dig in as the ground was all hard rock) and was itself overrun by German tanks. The NZ 4th Bde which had overrun Brescia the night before was virtually wiped out that day when expected supporting British Armour didnt arrive and German tanks rolled through the NZ positions. 4th Bde never fought another major battle in its original form, and was reformed as an Armoured Brigade with its own tanks so that the NZers wouldnt have to depend on British armour again.
My father's 6th Bde was then almost wiped out the next week just to the west of here in El Mreir on 21/22 July in a similar circumstance, after a successful night attack on german and Italian positions, followed by a dawn counterattack by German armour and german and Italian infantry, when yet again British armour failed to arrive in support until it was too late. When the Brit armour (23rd Armrd Bde) did arrive they showed great bravery but were wiped out very quickly by the german armour and artillery as they were raw green troops who had just arrived in Egypt (they lost over 90 tanks in less than 2 hours).
I was in Italy with my wife just 3 months ago, spending two weeks there in September, visiting Venezia, Firenze, Siena, Amalfi, Capri, and Roma, and seeing much of the country from trains as we travlled through it. You have a beautiful country and we enjoyed our time there on holiday greatly.
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Oasis
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Hi 22DBty22DBty wrote:Hi Oasis,
I am quite sure our father's could have been friends now. My Dad died in 2002 aged 85. He had no animosity to his former enemies in North Africa, although he was haunted the rest of his life by the things he saw done, and had to do himself, and had nightmares even 60 years later about the New Zealnd bayonet attacks he had taken part in.
I highly appreciate your note and opinions.
My father was caught POW night 14-15jul under the bayonet attack, having finished his 20mm projectiles. A night of nightmares, the hardest after 17 continuate months of Africa campaign. He also is still haunted by the thing he passed, sometimes he tells me he still hear the rattle of tanks or his eyes get moisten thinking of the plenty of friends dead, but also for the mercy about so many "enemies" dead: he says ... we were all young men, the Lt of the plt who captured me gave me a cigarette and said that probably tomorrow he will be my prisoner ... then his attendant blew up on a mine and I tried to keep him, but he was lacerated... we had to left him behind... The war diary of my father has no hate in it.
Thanks for your nice words also for my Country.
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22DBty
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It is quite likely that the Kiwi Lt who captured your father would have become an axis prisoner the next day as he said, as many of the NZ troops who overran Brescia units that night were captured or killed the next day when the German tanks and infantry overran the Kiwis on Ruweisat ridge. It is nice to hear of the Kiwi Lt giving your father a cigarette after capturing him.
One of the mistakes (that the NZ official war histories comment on) that the Kiwis made, (in a very confused battle where many Kiwi units lost their lines of advance in an area which had very few features that could be easily recognised, apart from one lone palm tree near the start line) on that night of 14th of July was moving through Brescia's lines too rapidly, with many following units passing through gaps where strong points had already been overrun rather than clearing the rest of the strongpoints on their correct lines of advance, and while they overran many posts, killing many Brescia men with bullet bayonet and grenade, in what the official history accounts make clear was a horrific and terrifying night for the Brescia soldiers, with the awful sounds of hand to hand combat being heard clearly across the desert, and took many prisoners, they didnt mop up properly, and they actually left many Brescia troops still in the area, unharmed and with their weapons, in their strongpoints, who were then able to cause problems and more Kiwi casualties later, after the Kiwis had moved on to Ruweisat ridge.
My father had several Italian and German prisoners with him in the early morning hours of 22nd July who had been captured south of and in El Mreir during his 6th Bde night advance, and he and his prisoners rapidly dug or hid as best they could on the edge of El Mreir when a major tank battle started near them soon after dawn on 22nd July. He left his prisoners once he realised his unit had been virtually destroyed, and went and hid so he could try and get back to safety. He hid for most of the day of 22nd and eventually sneaked away in the afternoon and made it back safely that night.
Is your father still alive? My Dad died in 2002 aged 85.
One of the mistakes (that the NZ official war histories comment on) that the Kiwis made, (in a very confused battle where many Kiwi units lost their lines of advance in an area which had very few features that could be easily recognised, apart from one lone palm tree near the start line) on that night of 14th of July was moving through Brescia's lines too rapidly, with many following units passing through gaps where strong points had already been overrun rather than clearing the rest of the strongpoints on their correct lines of advance, and while they overran many posts, killing many Brescia men with bullet bayonet and grenade, in what the official history accounts make clear was a horrific and terrifying night for the Brescia soldiers, with the awful sounds of hand to hand combat being heard clearly across the desert, and took many prisoners, they didnt mop up properly, and they actually left many Brescia troops still in the area, unharmed and with their weapons, in their strongpoints, who were then able to cause problems and more Kiwi casualties later, after the Kiwis had moved on to Ruweisat ridge.
My father had several Italian and German prisoners with him in the early morning hours of 22nd July who had been captured south of and in El Mreir during his 6th Bde night advance, and he and his prisoners rapidly dug or hid as best they could on the edge of El Mreir when a major tank battle started near them soon after dawn on 22nd July. He left his prisoners once he realised his unit had been virtually destroyed, and went and hid so he could try and get back to safety. He hid for most of the day of 22nd and eventually sneaked away in the afternoon and made it back safely that night.
Is your father still alive? My Dad died in 2002 aged 85.
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Oasis
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My father is still alive, at 90. He was from 1st Articelere Rgt, 7th btr 20mm, Brescia div.
He told me about the night march through the axis minefields but also through the british ones unknown to Kiwis also, towards allied lines.
He also told me about the long bayonets pushing forward the first line surveived injured comrades, and also about one german panzer behind him turning back not to shot against mixed italian/kiwi troops, the only help who could have saved them; and about the adjusted fire of Kiwis weapons with tracers, not available by the men of his section who fired to the shadows in the night with old cavalry rifles, with the shouts of the hand to hand combat near them. Few young survived soldiers (III/19th Rgt) cried like children as it was the first contact with the enemy, being reinforcements just arrived the day before, slaughtered into the trenches they were digging, during a short sleep. And then followed 5 years of POW in India.
I am trying to write down the tales of my father together with his diary memories, but as the time passes he has always less desire of remembering, prefering warning against war.
He told me about the night march through the axis minefields but also through the british ones unknown to Kiwis also, towards allied lines.
He also told me about the long bayonets pushing forward the first line surveived injured comrades, and also about one german panzer behind him turning back not to shot against mixed italian/kiwi troops, the only help who could have saved them; and about the adjusted fire of Kiwis weapons with tracers, not available by the men of his section who fired to the shadows in the night with old cavalry rifles, with the shouts of the hand to hand combat near them. Few young survived soldiers (III/19th Rgt) cried like children as it was the first contact with the enemy, being reinforcements just arrived the day before, slaughtered into the trenches they were digging, during a short sleep. And then followed 5 years of POW in India.
I am trying to write down the tales of my father together with his diary memories, but as the time passes he has always less desire of remembering, prefering warning against war.
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22DBty
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It is great to hear that your father is still alive, and I can understand how he does not want to remember and talk about terrible night. My father would have been 90 now too if he was still alive.
I hope you and him have a happy Christmas. Send him my regards from New Zealand. I am sure if my father was still alive he would want to wish your father a happy Christmas.
My father was very proud of his medals and what they stood for, but had little to do with commemorations of the war. Some years on Anzac day (our annual memorial day) he would polish his medals, put them on and go alone late in the afternoon to our local war memorial to remember his fallen friends, but he never went and marched with the other veterans in the big marches in the morning as he couldnt face the terrible memories in that setting.
It sounds as though your father was perhaps in an anti-tank artillery unit with his 20mm gun (or was it anti aircraft?). I have an uncle I see whenever I can, who is still alive and very healthy at 88 who was a troop and I THINK a battery commander in the New Zealand anti-tank regiment. He was captured and became a POW on the 23rd July 42 in the same area I think (Ruweisat/El Mreir) as your father, just a week or so after your father was captured. He and your father would have much in common to talk about if they ever met, I am sure.
I hope you and him have a happy Christmas. Send him my regards from New Zealand. I am sure if my father was still alive he would want to wish your father a happy Christmas.
My father was very proud of his medals and what they stood for, but had little to do with commemorations of the war. Some years on Anzac day (our annual memorial day) he would polish his medals, put them on and go alone late in the afternoon to our local war memorial to remember his fallen friends, but he never went and marched with the other veterans in the big marches in the morning as he couldnt face the terrible memories in that setting.
It sounds as though your father was perhaps in an anti-tank artillery unit with his 20mm gun (or was it anti aircraft?). I have an uncle I see whenever I can, who is still alive and very healthy at 88 who was a troop and I THINK a battery commander in the New Zealand anti-tank regiment. He was captured and became a POW on the 23rd July 42 in the same area I think (Ruweisat/El Mreir) as your father, just a week or so after your father was captured. He and your father would have much in common to talk about if they ever met, I am sure.
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Oasis
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I will give your regards and Christmas wishes to my father when I see him as he lives far from me. And also accept my best wishes of happy Christmas to you and your family too.
I am also sure that our fathers should have much to talk, also your uncle, or maybe they would just look into their eyes to go back to those far days. Even my father has always refused public commemorations: yust once every 5-6 years a dinner with some vets, but without his medal, always conserved with his bandoleer and cartridge-belt.
He was an artillery Lt of 1 Rgt Artiglieria Celere, 7th btry 20mm antiaircraft, but needed as antitank in the first line: on the 14th july he was waiting ammunitions having ran out of them since the day before when he had received some german ones, but "softer" so that as soon as shot they fluttered dangerously falling in the neighbourhood. He and his section were employed with first line infantry because, being motorized (two trucks) they had been sent forward with some Brescia bersaglieri, whilst the rest of the division was marching hundreds of miles of desert behind. On 2-3-4th july he had faced a hard attack by Kiwis from south at El Mreir: also in that occasion with only a few infantry troops. He was in Africa from february 1941 to july 1942 without any period of licence, as motorized italian forces were too few and it was necessary to move continuously forward and backward from Agheila to Tobruk, to Agedabia; then from Agheila again to Tobruk and Alamein to stop finally there. And then again to Suez, Calcutta, Dehra Dun and Yol. Restlessly.
Back to Italy, he didn't like anymore crowded places or hard noises, he slept on the carpet for months after having done so for many years, and he avoided sun and sand, so that I went to the beach with my sister an mother (he tried to come sometimes, but after an hour he had to go in the shade). This also left him the war. These are also some effects of the war.
Sorry for the long exposition and, again, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.
I am also sure that our fathers should have much to talk, also your uncle, or maybe they would just look into their eyes to go back to those far days. Even my father has always refused public commemorations: yust once every 5-6 years a dinner with some vets, but without his medal, always conserved with his bandoleer and cartridge-belt.
He was an artillery Lt of 1 Rgt Artiglieria Celere, 7th btry 20mm antiaircraft, but needed as antitank in the first line: on the 14th july he was waiting ammunitions having ran out of them since the day before when he had received some german ones, but "softer" so that as soon as shot they fluttered dangerously falling in the neighbourhood. He and his section were employed with first line infantry because, being motorized (two trucks) they had been sent forward with some Brescia bersaglieri, whilst the rest of the division was marching hundreds of miles of desert behind. On 2-3-4th july he had faced a hard attack by Kiwis from south at El Mreir: also in that occasion with only a few infantry troops. He was in Africa from february 1941 to july 1942 without any period of licence, as motorized italian forces were too few and it was necessary to move continuously forward and backward from Agheila to Tobruk, to Agedabia; then from Agheila again to Tobruk and Alamein to stop finally there. And then again to Suez, Calcutta, Dehra Dun and Yol. Restlessly.
Back to Italy, he didn't like anymore crowded places or hard noises, he slept on the carpet for months after having done so for many years, and he avoided sun and sand, so that I went to the beach with my sister an mother (he tried to come sometimes, but after an hour he had to go in the shade). This also left him the war. These are also some effects of the war.
Sorry for the long exposition and, again, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.