Let's Build - Axis North African OOB 17 November 1941

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Andreas
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Let's Build - Axis North African OOB 17 November 1941

Post by Andreas » 08 Oct 2007 16:29

The Axis OOB list seems to be missing that one.

http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=628

Air
In Africa
5a Squadra Aerea
Sector East (Derna - main base)
8th Bombing Wing (S.79) Martuba Stormo = Wing?
13th Bombing Wing with 11th and 43rd Bombing Group (Br.20) Barce and Martuba 2
239th Dive Bombing Squadron (Ju 87) Derna
279th Torpedo Squadron (S.79) Derna
19th Squadron R.S.T. Transport? (S.79) Derna
20th Fighter Group (G.50) Martuba
155th Fighter Group with 351th and 378th Fighter Squadron (Mc.200) Ain Gazala
153rd Fighter Group (Mc. 200) Derna
376th Fighter Squadron (Cr.42) Bir Hacheim
67th Group with 129th Squadron O.A. (?) (Ro. 37b) Ain Gazala and Bir Hacheim

Sector Centre (Bengasi - main base)
244th Bombing Squadron (S.79) Bengasi
209th Dive Bombing Squadron (Ju 87) Bengasi
174th R.S.T.? Squadron (S.79) Berka
160th Fighter Group (Cr.42) Bengasi
360th Fighter Squadron of 155th Fighter Group (G.50) Bengasi
2nd Group APC (Ghibli) Berka
15th Group with 32nd and 125th Squadron O.A. (?) (Ca.311) Agedabia
196th R.M.? Squadron (Cz.511) Bengasi
Part nucleo? 145th Group "T" (S.81 and S.82) Bengasi
Section 614th Squadron Socc. (Sea Rescue?) (Cz.506) Bengasi

Sector West (C.Benito - main base)
98th Bombing Group (Br.20) C.Benito
236th Dive Bombing Squadron (Ju 87) C.Benito
175th R.S.T.? Squadron (S.79) C.Benito
3rd Fighter Group (Cr.42) Sorman
Section 3rd Fighter Group (Cr.42) Misurata
12th Fighter Group (G.50) C.Benito
69th Group O.A. (Ca.311) Zuara
1st Group APC (Ghibli) Mellaha
103rd Sahara Aviation Squadron (S.81) Misurata
Sub-Squadron Sahara Aviation (Ghibli) Hon
145th R.M.? Squadron (Cz.511 and S.74/S.75) Pisida
145th Group "T" (S.81 and S.82) C.Benito
614th Squadron Socc. (Sea Rescue?) (Cz.506) Karamanli

Fliegerführer Afrika

In Italy
X. Fliegerkorps

In Greece

Naval
In Africa

In Italy
Marineoberkommand Süd

In Greece

Ground
Comando Superiore ( General Bastico)
Panzergruppe Afrika (General Rommel)
Arko 104 (Gen. Böttcher)

Deutsches Afrikakorps (General Crüwell)
15. Panzerdivision
21. Panzerdivision
Division z.b.V. Afrika
Gruppe Wechmar (AA 3 and AA 33)
55th Infantry Division "Savona" with
15th and 16th Infantry Regiment
12th Artillery Regiment
155th MG Battalion
300th Oasis Battalion (German)
4th Squadron Group Genova Cavalleria

XXI Corpo Armata
Division "Trento"
Division "Pavia"
Division "Bologna"
Division "Brescia"

XX Corpo Armata di Manovra (Gen. Gambara - AKA Motorised Corps Gambara)
132nd Armoured Division "Ariete" with
8th Bersaglieri Regiment
132nd Medium Tank Regiment
32nd Light Tank Regiment
132nd Artillery Regiment
Divisional units amongst which:
One group of 75/27 from Division "Pavia"
One group of 105/28 from 24th Army Artillery Group

101st Motorised Division "Trieste"
65th and 66th Infantry Regiment
9th Bersaglieri Regiment
21st Artillery Regiment
Divisional units amongst which:
507th Escort Battalion

Source: "The Sidi Rezegh Battles" Agar-Hamilton & Turner; "L'Operazioni in Africa Settentrionale Vol. II Tobruk" General Staff of the Italian Army

More detail to follow.

All the best

Andreas
Last edited by Andreas on 08 Oct 2007 18:49, edited 1 time in total.

RichTO90
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Re: Let's Build - Axis North African OOB 17 November 1941

Post by RichTO90 » 08 Oct 2007 18:36

Andreas wrote:Arko 104 (Gen. Böttcher)


Circa 9 September 1941
Divisional Artillery:
Art.-Regt. 33
I. Abtl.
1. Battr. (4 10.5cm lFH)
2. Battr. (4 10.5cm lFH)
3. Battr. (4 10.5cm lFH)
II. Abtl.
4. Battr. (4 10.5cm lFH)
5. Battr. (4 10.5cm lFH)
6. Battr. (4 10.5cm lFH)
III. Abt.
7. Battr. (4 10cm FK)
8. Battr. (4 15cm sFH)
9. Battr. (4 15cm sFH)
Art.-Regt. 155 (Stabs Batterie not yet arrived?)
I. Abtl. (not yet arrived?)
1. Battr. (4 10.5cm lFH)
2. Battr. (4 10.5cm lFH)
3. Battr. (4 10.5cm lFH)
II. Abtl.
4. Battr. (4 10.5cm lFH)
5. Battr. (4 10.5cm lFH) (re-equipping)
6. Battr. (4 10.5cm lFH)
III. Abt. (not yet arrived?)
7. Battr. (4 10cm FK) (re-equipping)
8. Battr. (4 15cm sFH)
9. Battr. (4 15cm sFH)

Army Artillery:
ARKO 104 (not yet arrived?)
Stab Art.-Regt. 221 (Nachrichten-Zug not yet arrived)
II./Art.-Regt. 115
4. Battr. (3 21cm Mrs)
5. Battr. (3 21cm Mrs)
6. Battr. (3 21cm Mrs)
Art.-Abtl. 408
1. Battr. (4 10cm FK)
2. Battr. (4 10cm FK)
3. Battr. (4 10cm FK)
Art.-Battr. 902 (3 17cm K.i.M.Laf.)
4./Art.-Regt. 149 (3 17cm K) (not yet arrived)
4./Art.-Regt. 772 (3 17cm K) (not yet arrived)
Geb.-Art.-Battr. 363 (3 7.5cm Geb.K.?)
Geb.-Art.-Battr. 364 (3 7.5cm Geb.K.?)
Heeres-Küsten-Artillerie-Abtl. 523
1. Battr. (6 15.5cm sFK (f))
2. Battr. (6 15.5cm sFK (f))
3. Battr. (6 15.5cm sFK (f))
Heeres-Küsten-Artillerie-Abtl. 528
1. Battr. (6 15.5cm sFK (f)) (not yet arrived)
2. Battr. (6 15.5cm sFK (f)
3. Battr. (6 15.5cm sFK (f))
Heeres-Küsten-Artillerie-Abtl. 529 (not yet arrived)
1. Battr. (6 15.5cm sFK (f))
2. Battr. (6 15.5cm sFK (f))
3. Battr. (6 15.5cm sFK (f))
Heeres-Küsten-Artillerie-Abtl. 533 (at Tobruk, 2 guns at Bardia)
1. Battr. (6 15.5cm sFK (f))
2. Battr. (6 15.5cm sFK (f))
3. Battr. (6 15.5cm sFK (f))
le.-Beob.-Abtl. 11

Circa 20 September 1941 Flak

Panzergruppe Afrika:

Heeres-Flak-M.G.-Btl. 612 (mot.)
1. Komp. (12 2cm)
2. Komp. (12 2cm)
3. Komp. (sunk)
DAK:
Heeres-Flak-M.G.-Btl. 606 (Sfl.)
1. Komp. (12 2cm)
2. Komp. (12 2cm) (not yet arrived)
3. Komp. (12 2cm)
I./LW-Flak-Regt. 18 (gem. mot.)
1. Battr. (4 8.8cm)
2. Battr. (4 8.8cm)
3. Battr. (4 8.8cm)
4. Battr. (12 2cm)
5. Battr. (12 2cm)
I./LW-Flak-Regt. 33 (gem. mot.)
1. Battr. (4 8.8cm)
2. Battr. (4 8.8cm)
3. Battr. (4 8.8cm)
4. Battr. (12 2cm)
5. Battr. (12 2cm)

13emeDBLE
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Re: Let's Build - Axis North African OOB 17 November 1941

Post by 13emeDBLE » 10 Oct 2007 22:29

Andreas wrote:The Axis OOB list seems to be missing that one.

Deutsches Afrikakorps (General Crüwell)
15. Panzerdivision
21. Panzerdivision
Division z.b.V. Afrika
Gruppe Wechmar (AA 3 and AA 33)
55th Infantry Division "Savona" with
15th and 16th Infantry Regiment
12th Artillery Regiment
155th MG Battalion
300th Oasis Battalion (German)
4th Squadron Group Genova Cavalleria


Hello,

Not sure that the Deutsches afrikakorps had the zBv Afrika Division or the Frontier sector under it command.

I must check but the Bardia - Solloum's sector was independant, and the Afrika division, and others units were directly under the Panzergruppe Afrika command.

I will verify for the Wechmar Gruppe, but I guess that it was under Crüwell's command.

regards,

CM

Jon G.
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Re: Let's Build - Axis North African OOB 17 November 1941

Post by Jon G. » 06 Nov 2007 12:44

Andreas wrote:...Fliegerführer Afrika...


At this time the Fliegerführer Afrika had a round 190 a/c on strength according to the British OH:

I./JG 27
II./JG 27

Both recently re-equipped with the Bf 109 F.

Also the recon 2. (H)/14 with Bf 110 and Bf 109; probably also Hs 126

III/LG 1 with Ju 88s

Stukas:

I/St.G. 1
II/St.G. 2
Stab/St.G. 3

Zerstörers:

8./ZG 26 with Bf 110s

During November the 7./ZG 26 (from Germany) and the 9./ZG 26 (from Sicily) were sent to Derna while the 8./ZG 26 went back to Germany. Also at some point after ths start of Crusader the I/St.G. 3 was sent from Crete to Derna to reinforce the FA.

Finally, the III/JG 27 (from Russia) and III/JG 53 (from Sicily) both arrived in North Africa Dec 6.

RichTO90
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Re: Let's Build - Axis North African OOB 17 November 1941

Post by RichTO90 » 06 Nov 2007 19:27

Andreas wrote:...Fliegerführer Afrika...


Fliegerführer Afrika (Ist/Einsatzbereit)
11 October 1941

2.(H)/14 - Libya - 21/6 Bf 110C-4 and Hs 126
I./JG 27 - North Africa - 31/17 Bf 109E-7/Trop
II./JG 27 - North Africa - 28/13 Bf 109F-4/Trop (minus 6./JG 27)
8./ZG 26 - North Africa - 12/8 Bf 110D-3
III./LG 1 - Libya - 31/15 Ju 88A-4/Trop
I./StG 1 - Libya - 39/26 Ju 87B-1
II./StG 2 - Libya - 31/26 Ju 87B-1
Stab/StG 3 - Libya - 7/2 Ju 87B-1 and He 111

Fliegerführer Afrika
27 December 1941

2.(H)/14 - Libya - 20/12 Bf 110C-4 and Hs 126
Stab/JG 27 - Magrun & Arco - 3/3 Bf 109F-4/Trop
I./JG 27 - Magrun & Arco - 24/10 Bf 109F-4/Trop
II./JG 27 - Magrun & Arco - 24/10 Bf 109F-4/Trop
III./JG 27 - Magrun & Arco - 20/10 Bf 109F-4/Trop
I./StG 1 Libya 32/17 Ju 87B-1
Stab/StG 3 9/5 Ju 87B-1 and He 111
I./StG 3 30/18 Ju 87

Jon G.
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Post by Jon G. » 06 Nov 2007 23:23

Hehe, I think I recognize those figures from Price :) I've tried piecing together a LW OOB for the latter half of November, but other than the clearly rounded figures* from The Rise and Fall of the German Air Force I haven't been able to find any strength figures for individual Gruppen on the eve of Crusader.

The III./JG 53's first appearance in North Africa was very brief. The Gruppe arrived at Tmimi on Dec. 6th (although the site I link to says Dec. 8); moved on to Derna on Dec 11, and back to Catania on Dec. 17th. The 8./JG 53 arriving at Benghazi a few days later on the 11th and leaving again for Catania on Dec 23.

*Namely a total of 190 a/c, of which 50 were single-engined fighters and 70 were Stukas.

RichTO90
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Post by RichTO90 » 07 Nov 2007 07:13

Jon G. wrote:Hehe, I think I recognize those figures from Price :)


Yep, via my old friend and former partner in crime Jason Long at Sturmvogel. :D

I've tried piecing together a LW OOB for the latter half of November, but other than the clearly rounded figures* from The Rise and Fall of the German Air Force I haven't been able to find any strength figures for individual Gruppen on the eve of Crusader.


Yep, too bad the Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen only run back to March 1942. :x

Jon G.
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Re: Let's Build - Axis North African OOB 17 November 1941

Post by Jon G. » 07 Nov 2007 13:50

Thank you for the figures Rich. I reckon that the difficulty associated with determining Luftwaffe strength in North Africa in November 1941 is connected to Kesselring's appointment as OB Süd at the same time and the consequent reshuffle of LW units.

13emeDBLE wrote:...Not sure that the Deutsches afrikakorps had the zBv Afrika Division or the Frontier sector under it command.

I must check but the Bardia - Solloum's sector was independant, and the Afrika division, and others units were directly under the Panzergruppe Afrika command...


No, the Afrika Division was part of the DAK along with the Savona Division. Just to set the ball rolling again the Afrika Division z.b.V at the time had

361st Afrika Regt. with two battalions (ex-foreign legionnaires)
155th Infantry Regt. with three battalions
300th Oasis Battalion (another special unit with Germans who had lived in Africa)
900th Engineer Battalion z.b.V.

2nd Celere artillery Regt. (Italian) with three batteries of 100 mm guns and four batteries of 75 mm guns.

Finally, the division had the following infantry battalions attached:

2nd Battalion of the 255th Infantry Regt. (from the 110th Infantry Division)
3rd Battalion of the 347th IR (from the 197th ID)
2nd Battalion of the 115th Motorized Infantry Regt.

All data lifted directly from Greene & Massignani.

Lannes
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Re: Let's Build - Axis North African OOB 17 November 1941

Post by Lannes » 12 Nov 2007 09:38

RichTO90 wrote:I./LW-Flak-Regt. 18 (gem. mot.)
1. Battr. (4 8.8cm)
2. Battr. (4 8.8cm)
3. Battr. (4 8.8cm)
4. Battr. (12 2cm)
5. Battr. (12 2cm)


According to the Adjutant of FlaK-Rgt 135, the I./18 at the time had two additional, static batteries of 88s (1a./18 and 2a./18) deployed with the Frontier defense forces, principally the Savona Division.
Aris Kosionidis

Andreas
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Re: Let's Build - Axis North African OOB 17 November 1941

Post by Andreas » 12 Nov 2007 11:58

13emeDBLE wrote:
Andreas wrote:The Axis OOB list seems to be missing that one.

Deutsches Afrikakorps (General Crüwell)
15. Panzerdivision
21. Panzerdivision
Division z.b.V. Afrika
Gruppe Wechmar (AA 3 and AA 33)
55th Infantry Division "Savona" with
15th and 16th Infantry Regiment
12th Artillery Regiment
155th MG Battalion
300th Oasis Battalion (German)
4th Squadron Group Genova Cavalleria


Hello,

Not sure that the Deutsches afrikakorps had the zBv Afrika Division or the Frontier sector under it command.

I must check but the Bardia - Solloum's sector was independant, and the Afrika division, and others units were directly under the Panzergruppe Afrika command.

I will verify for the Wechmar Gruppe, but I guess that it was under Crüwell's command.

regards,

CM


Thanks for this.

I'll check in Kriebel. According to the South-African history, Bardia/Sollum and 21st PD (with Wechmar) were directly under Panzergruppe (the SA history uses a DAK report and Kriebel, as well as war diaries), while the status of the Tobruk assault force (Div. zbV, 15. PD) is unclear to me.

All the best

Andreas

Andreas
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Re: Let's Build - Axis North African OOB 17 November 1941

Post by Andreas » 12 Nov 2007 12:05

RichTO90 wrote:
Andreas wrote:...Fliegerführer Afrika...


Fliegerführer Afrika (Ist/Einsatzbereit)
11 October 1941

2.(H)/14 - Libya - 21/6 Bf 110C-4 and Hs 126
I./JG 27 - North Africa - 31/17 Bf 109E-7/Trop
II./JG 27 - North Africa - 28/13 Bf 109F-4/Trop (minus 6./JG 27)
8./ZG 26 - North Africa - 12/8 Bf 110D-3
III./LG 1 - Libya - 31/15 Ju 88A-4/Trop
I./StG 1 - Libya - 39/26 Ju 87B-1
II./StG 2 - Libya - 31/26 Ju 87B-1
Stab/StG 3 - Libya - 7/2 Ju 87B-1 and He 111

Fliegerführer Afrika
27 December 1941

2.(H)/14 - Libya - 20/12 Bf 110C-4 and Hs 126
Stab/JG 27 - Magrun & Arco - 3/3 Bf 109F-4/Trop
I./JG 27 - Magrun & Arco - 24/10 Bf 109F-4/Trop
II./JG 27 - Magrun & Arco - 24/10 Bf 109F-4/Trop
III./JG 27 - Magrun & Arco - 20/10 Bf 109F-4/Trop
I./StG 1 Libya 32/17 Ju 87B-1
Stab/StG 3 9/5 Ju 87B-1 and He 111
I./StG 3 30/18 Ju 87


A round of applause please gentlemen.

Every history I have seen of this matter, including the official histories by Britain, South Africa, and Italy, states that the number of German planes on the 17 November can not be ascertained, neither Soll nor Ist.

All the best

Andreas

Jon G.
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Post by Jon G. » 12 Nov 2007 12:20

DAK tank strengths November 18 according to Jentz:

Panzer Regiment 8, poised to assault Tobruk at the time, was actually overstrength. It had

42 Pz II
77 Pz III
21 Pz IV
4 kl. Pz. Befehlswagen
6 gr. Pz. Befehlswagen
5 captured Matilda Mk II

Panzer Regiment 5, which had suffered losses in Rommel's abortive September dash for the wire, had the following tanks on strength on November 18:

35 Pz II
68 Pz III
17 Pz IV
4 gr. Pz. Befehlswagen

Andreas
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Post by Andreas » 12 Nov 2007 12:47

Ok, found the assignments.

Panzergruppe with the following under command:
Sollum-Bardia Front
21. PD (with Gruppe Wechmar under command)
DAK
XXI. AK (ital.) with Div. Pavia and mass of Bologna

XX. CAM (ital.) to co-operate but not under command, has however sent off Trento to take over part of the siege lines.

DAK has the responsibility for the main part of the attack on Tobruk and has under command:
15. PD
Div. zbV Afrika

All the best

Andreas

maxs75
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Re: Let's Build - Axis North African OOB 17 November 1941

Post by maxs75 » 12 Nov 2007 18:23

Andreas wrote:The Axis OOB list seems to be missing that one.

http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=628

Air
In Africa
5a Squadra Aerea
Sector East (Derna - main base)
8th Bombing Wing (S.79) Martuba Stormo = Wing?
13th Bombing Wing with 11th and 43rd Bombing Group (Br.20) Barce and Martuba 2
239th Dive Bombing Squadron (Ju 87) Derna
279th Torpedo Squadron (S.79) Derna
19th Squadron R.S.T. Transport? (S.79) Derna
20th Fighter Group (G.50) Martuba
155th Fighter Group with 351th and 378th Fighter Squadron (Mc.200) Ain Gazala
153rd Fighter Group (Mc. 200) Derna
376th Fighter Squadron (Cr.42) Bir Hacheim
67th Group with 129th Squadron O.A. (?) (Ro. 37b) Ain Gazala and Bir Hacheim

Sector Centre (Bengasi - main base)
244th Bombing Squadron (S.79) Bengasi
209th Dive Bombing Squadron (Ju 87) Bengasi
174th R.S.T.? Squadron (S.79) Berka
160th Fighter Group (Cr.42) Bengasi
360th Fighter Squadron of 155th Fighter Group (G.50) Bengasi
2nd Group APC (Ghibli) Berka
15th Group with 32nd and 125th Squadron O.A. (?) (Ca.311) Agedabia
196th R.M.? Squadron (Cz.511) Bengasi
Part nucleo? 145th Group "T" (S.81 and S.82) Bengasi
Section 614th Squadron Socc. (Sea Rescue?) (Cz.506) Bengasi

Sector West (C.Benito - main base)
98th Bombing Group (Br.20) C.Benito
236th Dive Bombing Squadron (Ju 87) C.Benito
175th R.S.T.? Squadron (S.79) C.Benito
3rd Fighter Group (Cr.42) Sorman
Section 3rd Fighter Group (Cr.42) Misurata
12th Fighter Group (G.50) C.Benito
69th Group O.A. (Ca.311) Zuara
1st Group APC (Ghibli) Mellaha
103rd Sahara Aviation Squadron (S.81) Misurata
Sub-Squadron Sahara Aviation (Ghibli) Hon
145th R.M.? Squadron (Cz.511 and S.74/S.75) Pisida
145th Group "T" (S.81 and S.82) C.Benito
614th Squadron Socc. (Sea Rescue?) (Cz.506) Karamanli


Andreas


Being Italian can be of some help:
RST is for Ricognizione Strategica terrestre (Strategical Recce, land) (At the beginning of the war there were Groups/sqd. both land based or sea based, i.e. BT (land bombers) with S.79, BR.20 and so on, and BM (Sea bombers) with Cant Z.506B). It was not a transport squadron.
RM is Ricognizione Marittima (Sea Recce).
OA is Osservazione Aerea (Air observation), most probably similar to RAF Lysander squadrons for Army Cooperation.
Group "T" was probably Gruppo T (Trasporti), that is obviosly Transport.
"nucleo" is pretty unclear for everyone, but I think about it as less than a flight, or a flight
Section 614th Squadron Socc. (Sea Rescue?): Yes

Stormo BT = Bomb Wing.
2x Squadriglie = 1 Gruppo BT
2x Gruppi = 1 Stormo BT
1 Sqd BT had 7+2 planes
So, on paper the strenght of a Gruppo BT was like a RAF squadron (16+2 vs 14+4) and a Stormo like a USAAF Heavy Bomb Group (28+8 vs 32+??)

Fighter had different numbers:
Stormo CT = Fighter Wing.
3x Squadriglie = 1 Gruppo CT
2x Gruppi = 1 Stormo CT
1 Sqd BT had 9+3 planes
So a Gruppo had 27+9 fighters.

Max

Jon G.
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Re: Let's Build - Axis North African OOB 17 November 1941

Post by Jon G. » 12 Nov 2007 20:06

Andreas wrote:...Every history I have seen of this matter, including the official histories by Britain, South Africa, and Italy, states that the number of German planes on the 17 November can not be ascertained, neither Soll nor Ist...


Well, the British OH does offer the rounded figures which I gave above. Shores and Ring, in Fighters over the Desert, the 'standard' work on the air war over North Africa, offer these alternative figures for Axis fighter air strength on the eve of Crusader on p. 62:

I./JG 27 with one Staffel* Bf 109 F
II./JG 27 with three Staffeln Bf 109 F
10./JG 27 (Jabo) Bf 109 E

III./ZG 26 with three Staffeln Bf 110

2./NJG 2 with one Staffel Ju 88 C-6**

Shores & Ring set each Staffel at 'approx. 9' aircraft each.

The Regia Aeronautica had

6 Gruppo with three squadriligie of MC 202
9 Gruppo with three squadriligie mixed MC 202 and CR 42
17 Gruppo with three squadriligie MC 202

20 Gruppo with three squadriligie G-50
153 Gruppo with three squadriligie MC 200
157 Gruppo with three squadriligie MC 200

374 squadriglia with MC 200

Each squadriligia also set at 9 aircraft.

*Presumably the other two Staffeln were still re-equipping with the BF 109 F.
**Elsewhere (p. 61) S & R set 2./NJG 2 strenth at 6 aircraft. According to the link the unit arrived at Benghazi on Nov 17 and returned to Catania November 28th. Maybe the night fighters were flying shotgun for Benghazi-bound convoys?

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