Let's Build - Axis North African OOB 17 November 1941

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13emeDBLE
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Re: Let's Build - Axis North African OOB 17 November 1941

#16

Post by 13emeDBLE » 12 Nov 2007, 22:23

Jon G. wrote: No, the Afrika Division was part of the DAK along with the Savona Division. Just to set the ball rolling again the Afrika Division z.b.V at the time had

361st Afrika Regt. with two battalions (ex-foreign legionnaires)
155th Infantry Regt. with three battalions
300th Oasis Battalion (another special unit with Germans who had lived in Africa)
900th Engineer Battalion z.b.V.

2nd Celere artillery Regt. (Italian) with three batteries of 100 mm guns and four batteries of 75 mm guns.

Finally, the division had the following infantry battalions attached:

2nd Battalion of the 255th Infantry Regt. (from the 110th Infantry Division)
3rd Battalion of the 347th IR (from the 197th ID)
2nd Battalion of the 115th Motorized Infantry Regt.

All data lifted directly from Greene & Massignani.
Ok. to be exact, let me explain why I believed that 90. Leichte-divison was not really attached to DAK at the beginning of Crusader :

The DAK headquarter was in charge of the coordination of the siege and assault of Tobruk, with :
- the 15. Pz-Div
- the 90. Leichte Afrika-division (former Division-Kommando z.b. V. Afrika)
- the four italian division : Bologna, Pavia, Trento and Brescia.

But the attack from Egypt force Rommel to change this theorical organisation, so in fact The DAK didn't really have the 90.Leichte-division under its operationnal control till the end of november for a short period.

The Savona Division was part of the border area, which was not under DAK headquarter. The border organisation had the Oasis battalions, and the 2nd Celere and others Batteries (Gruppo Pardi, Kampfgruppe Bach...).

The 90. Leichte Afrika-division had at the beginning of Crusader :
- Schutzen-regt (mot) 155
- Afrika-regt (mot) 361 (with the former german spoken french Foreign legion)
- aufklarung-Kompanie 580
- Artillerie-Abt (mot) 361
- Pionier-Bat 900
- Nachrichten-Kompanie 190.

the Schuzen-regt 115 was part of the 15. Panzer-division, not of the 90. Leichte-division.

The Kampfgruppe Wechmar was first under 21. Panzer-division control.

When Rommel realised that a major Allies offensive was occuring (after several asks from Crüwell and the 21. Panzer-division HQ), he diverted all motorised formations from Tobruk, especially 15. Panzer-division, the 19th of november at midday.

Then all former organisation will disappear, and all divisions will be engaged in several Kampfgruppen, changing from time to time.

After the Totensontag, all german units were assembled in the Sidi Rezegh area. Rommel decided to threw the DAK (15 and 21. Panzer-divisions) to the border to destroy all Allies division attacking Sollum-Bardia positions.

He let only the 90. Leichte afrika-division and Kampfgruppe Böttcher (the Arko 104 with all heavy artillery) to clean the battlefield and to keep Tobruk cut from the NZ division avancing from the East.

After the defeat of the DAK during the confused border operations, an important meeting with Rommel and Crüwell the 28th of november at 19h00 (sorry 7h00 pm) change the organisation and put the 90.Leichte-division under operational control of the DAK HQ.

It will be the first time that operations let 90. Leichte-division being engaged under the DAK HQ (for the 28th and 29th of november operations against the Cauldron of Sidi Rezegh and the Ed Duda hill at the beginning of december).

This organisation ended at the 3rd of december when the DAK was engaged in new operations against the East and after during the second battle of Bir el Gobi.

During this time, the 90. Leichte-division remained near Tobruk, recovering of the losses undergone during the heavy fights of the last days. The main retreat of this division, with the Arko 104 began the 8th of december to Ain el Gazala. As soon as the 10th of december, the 90.Leichte-division was sent to Agedabia to protect the rear of the Panzergruppe Afrika against the "E" Force.

My source ? Well a lot of documents.. studied in my book :wink: , here :

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=126361

Hope this will help you,

CM

Andreas
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Re: Let's Build - Axis North African OOB 17 November 1941

#17

Post by Andreas » 12 Nov 2007, 22:37

13emeDBLE wrote:
Jon G. wrote: No, the Afrika Division was part of the DAK along with the Savona Division.
Ok. to be exact, let me explain why I believed that 90. Leichte-divison was not really attached to DAK at the beginning of Crusader :
Jon is wrong in that Savona was under DAK, but regarding the status of Div: zbV, look at the date of the OOB I am asking for. ;)

I explicitly wanted to get the OOB before the Commonwealth forces started crossing the wire, since anything between then and 7 February is likely incomplete snapshot data.

All the best

Andreas


13emeDBLE
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#18

Post by 13emeDBLE » 13 Nov 2007, 10:10

Yes you are right : the theorical classification of units the 15th of november (in preparation for the Tobruk's assault) was the following :

- under DAK : 15. PzD, 90. LD, and the four italian divisions (with the Arko 104 in support of the siege of the fortress).
- directly under the PzGr Afrika : the border force (savona and others), the CAM (Ariete and Trieste) and the 21. PzD (with the Kampfgruppe Wechmar).

But this was only theory.

In practice, as soon as the Kampfrguppe Wechmar was involved in fights against the british armoured cars units covering the deployment of the Allied forces attacking from Egypt, you will see that Crüwell made several visits and reports from the 21. PzD (which was NOT in theory under his responsability).

He was the first asking for a delay on the assault against Tobruk to deal with the new threat (first undergoing some bad remarks from Rommel and the PzGr Afrika staff).

So my 2cents conclusions was : Rommel and the PzGr Afrika HQ were involved in the preparation of the assault, and the organisation described was never really applied.

The 21. PzD was not under Crüwell command at the time, but continue to report to him.

It was the same at the beginning of december, when Böttcher took the command of the 21 PzD (during the second battle of Sidi Rezegh) : he was the former commander of Arko 104, which was always directly under the PzGr Afrika control. So when he needed helps, he asked directly to Rommel to retire his division exhausted and in the middle of ennemies forces.

Crüwell answer him very angrily : "1) you will stay where you are 2) you are under the DAK HQ, so don't ask directly by radio orders from PanzerGruppe..."

habitus are always difficult to change.

So that's why I permit myself to give you some infos on the ORBAT. Of coruse you are right that the german organisation in Africa was a bit complex and confused.

Forgive my bad english.

regards,

CM

Andreas
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#19

Post by Andreas » 13 Nov 2007, 11:41

13emeDBLE - your info is most welcome, and I agree that it is important to look beyond the paper organisation, so the question of reality versus theory is one to keep in mind when discussing these things, and trying to see how they could eventually be presented in the factbook.

Merci beaucoup pour votre aide avec ce sujet, et votre Anglais est très bien.

Amicalement

Andreas

Jon G.
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Re: Let's Build - Axis North African OOB 17 November 1941

#20

Post by Jon G. » 13 Nov 2007, 11:42

13emeDBLE wrote: Ok. to be exact, let me explain why I believed that 90. Leichte-divison was not really attached to DAK at the beginning of Crusader...
Thanks a lot for the additional information on the Afrika Division z.b.V. I'm a little puzzled, though, why you insist on calling it the 90th Leichte? As far as I know the Afrika Division z.b.V. only got its number in April 1942.

As for my placing the Savona Division under DAK command, I blame Greene & Massignani.

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#21

Post by Andreas » 13 Nov 2007, 11:57

Jon

AFAICS they changed to 90. Leichte during Crusader, before the end of November 41.

All the best

Andreas

13emeDBLE
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#22

Post by 13emeDBLE » 13 Nov 2007, 13:18

Andreas wrote:13emeDBLE - your info is most welcome, and I agree that it is important to look beyond the paper organisation, so the question of reality versus theory is one to keep in mind when discussing these things, and trying to see how they could eventually be presented in the factbook.
YES, the difference between theory and practice is always important for me, especially when the commander is... Rommel :lol: .

I do not want to be the cause of a fight between two kind staff members :wink: but the changement of the name of the Division-Kommando z.b. V. Afrika to 90. Leichte Afrika-division occured just at the beginning of Crusader.

I work since long years ago on the DAK campaign, and you could find a lot of informations in my book (if you read french, and if you have the chance to buy it before it was sold out :P ).

I am now working on the 1942's campaigns, a big stuff ! 8-)

I hope to end my work at the end of this month (for publication at the beginning of 2008).

I will keep you in touch if you are interested.

Best Regards

Cedric Mas

Andreas
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#23

Post by Andreas » 13 Nov 2007, 13:32

So what's the title of the book then (the 1941 book)?

All the best

Andreas

Jon G.
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#24

Post by Jon G. » 13 Nov 2007, 20:40

Andreas wrote:AFAICS they changed to 90. Leichte during Crusader, before the end of November 41...
According to the so-so Feldgrau unit history and the more authoritative LDW unit history the name change only took place in April 1942. Although the name may have been used well before it became official of course.

Or perhaps I should just use Greene & Massignani's book as a door stop instead of as a reference.

I would certainly be interested in reading your book, 13emeDBLE but alas I don't read French :(

Edit: fixed link to G & M book
Last edited by Jon G. on 13 Nov 2007, 21:33, edited 1 time in total.

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David W
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#25

Post by David W » 13 Nov 2007, 21:16

Jon.

G&M's book was as good as it got when it was first printed.

13emeDBLE's book is well worth it, even if like me, you don't read French.

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#26

Post by Andreas » 13 Nov 2007, 21:29

So what's the bloody title then? :)

All the best

Andreas

13emeDBLE
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Re: Let's Build - Axis North African OOB 17 November 1941

#27

Post by 13emeDBLE » 13 Nov 2007, 21:36

13emeDBLE wrote:
My source ? Well a lot of documents.. studied in my book :wink: , here :

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=126361
I gave the link earlier to the presentation of my little work.

Andreas, you are right :wink: the name is "1941 campaign". It is in fact a special issue of the famous french review BATAILLES & BLINDES, hors-série n°6, published this summer (august 2008) and nearly sold out.

130 pages and more than 180 pictures (mostly unpublished, from my own collection), with some colour profiles and others...

All entirely devoted to the 1941 campaign of the Afrikakorps.

The name of 90. Leichte-division changed in november 1941 on battles accounts extracted from Panzergruppe Afrika. Perhaps the OKH registered this change later ?

I checked during my researches some extracts of radios communications during battles of Sidi Rezegh and Rommel and others used this new name...

Regards,

CM

Andreas
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#28

Post by Andreas » 13 Nov 2007, 21:55

Just ordered that.

It better be good. ;)

A+

Andreas

13emeDBLE
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#29

Post by 13emeDBLE » 13 Nov 2007, 22:16

Jon G. wrote:
According to the so-so Feldgrau unit history and the more authoritative LDW unit history the name change only took place in April 1942. Although the name may have been used well before it became official of course.

Or perhaps I should just use Greene & Massignani's book as a door stop instead of as a reference.
Jon, We must be careful. The Feldgrau Website gave two differents dates for the name's change of the 90. Leichte-division, read the text :

"The 90th Light Africa Division went though a number distinct changes in name and organization between 1941 and 1943. The division was originally formed on June 26th, 1941 when a number of units were brought together under the operational control of “Division Command for Special Use Africa”, otherwise known in German as Divisions-Kommando z.b.V Afrika. This formation initially controlled approximately two regimental sized infantry units. In August of 1941 that unit became simply the “Division for Special Use Africa” (Division z.b.V Afrika). From this point the naming of the division is somewhat confused. Numerous sources list the division as becoming the 90th Light Infantry Division on November 27th, 1941, and later the 90th Light Africa Division in March of 1942, but two rather prominent sources (Rolf Stoves “Die gepanzerten und Motorisierten deutchen Grossverbande 1935-1945” and Peter Schmitz & Jurgen Thies “Die Truppenkennzeichen der Verbande und Einheiten der deutschen Wehrmacht und Waffen-SS und ihre Einsatze im Zweiten Weltkrieg 1939-1945”) list the division as becoming the 90th Light Infantry Division on April 1st, 1942 and later the 90th Light Afrika Division on July 26th, 1942. Some confusion appears to exist regarding the actual date on which the division changed from the Africa Special Use Division to the 90th Light. An important piece of the puzzle is provided by official records. Roger Bender in his excellent reference work “Uniforms, Organization and History of the Afrikakorps” states that according to official German war records the unit was referred to as the 90th Light as of November 28th, 1941. As can be seen some aspects of this units history are sadly murky."

If the Lexicon Website gave another date, it is not coherent :
The date of arrival of the division was in november 1941 (sic), and the orbat of the division of 1941 used the "90. Leichte-division 1941" name... So I guess that there is some typos on this page of a very accurate Website.

My conclusions were coming from the use inside the Panzergruppe Afrika during Sidi Rezegh Battles : they used the new name (shorter of course for radio communications :wink: ). But truth can be different of course.

I don't know the book of Greene and Massignani, but I enjoyed another book on the "naval war in mediterranean".

So keep it :lol: . Nobody is perfect and one mistake is not devil :) .

Andreas, I hope you will enjoy it, and do not hesitate to give me critics and advices to make my work improving...

Regards,

CM
Last edited by 13emeDBLE on 13 Nov 2007, 22:21, edited 1 time in total.

Andreas
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#30

Post by Andreas » 13 Nov 2007, 22:18

Jon G. wrote:
Andreas wrote:AFAICS they changed to 90. Leichte during Crusader, before the end of November 41...
According to the so-so Feldgrau unit history and the more authoritative LDW unit history the name change only took place in April 1942. Although the name may have been used well before it became official of course.

Or perhaps I should just use Greene & Massignani's book as a door stop instead of as a reference.

I would certainly be interested in reading your book, 13emeDBLE but alas I don't read French :(

Edit: fixed link to G & M book
BTW - they are certainly not the only ones to make that mistake:

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... 0leDiv.htm

Fortunately enough the Factbook has it right:

http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=795

All the best

Andreas

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