Let's Build - Axis North African OOB 17 November 1941

[Nacht]

The best reference to confirm Cedric's viewpoint is the division's own KTB, 90. leichte Division, Appendix 134 & 135 circa November 28,1941... plus Battle Reports Ia on the Operations of Panzerarmee Afrika (November 18, 1941-February 6, 1942)

The Afrika Division for Special Purposes or Afrika-Division z.b.V. was organized from existing independant units in service in NA in August of 1941... plus additional troops being ferried across the Med by air transport and attached...

On November 27, 1941 a new designation was given the division as 90. leichte Division but this was not officially used in orders or dispatches until the late afternoon of November 28, 1941 per the KTB as cited of the 90./le. Div.

The division's first major action involved the succesful attempt to halt the Tobruk garrison sortie of November 21, 1941 plus the fighting at or around Sidi Rezegh... we should call this initial onset operational period timeframe of November 19 - December 1, 1941.

Also, remember immediately after this initial onset of operations the rather confused state of the 90. Leichte Afrika Division as its commander General Major Max Sümmermann commanding the element from 17 July of 41 until killed in action on December 10 of 1941!!! He was then superceded from December 11-27, 1941 by Oberst Johann Mickl (Kom. of Artillerie Kommando 104) and then a more permanent commander in General Major Richard Veith from Decemeber 28, 1941 - April 28, 1942... then Gen. Maj. Ulrich Kleemen from April 29, 1941-June14, 1942... there is much more but I will not bore our readers... DAK Commanding Generals in the field and the number killed or wounded is incredibly high when looking at army operations in any war. German Generals and commanders lead from the front of their units when in service in the DAK.

As for the March of 1942 particulars referred to in other referenced weblinks... the division was reorganized and renamed as 90. leichte Afrika-Division in March of 1942 and thus the confusion from some authors. The 90. leichte's KTB and the division's naming particulars are more specific and assumed to be more accurate! Here is what is shows to be the naming system:

Afrika-Div. z.b.V.-90. formed August of 1941

Then became leichte Div.-90. leichte Division on November 27, 1941

And was reorganized as the 90. leichte "Africa" Division in March of 1942


NEXT: As for Cedric's volumes.... INCREDIBLE research and the photos are simply GREAT! I am prejuduced because he used one photo from our group!

Battailes and Blindes Special AFRIKAKORPS Part 1 - 1941... Cedric (13emeDBLE) is currently completing Part 2... and Jan V. and I are are working up Part 3 - Tunisia 1943...

Here is the sold out "Special"... per Cedric (13emeDBLE)himself at:
http://www.AFRIKAKORPS.Org/News.htm :

From August 6, 2007...

This work is just published in a special issue of the French review "BATAILLES & BLINDES", Hors-série (special issue) number 6, of 130 pages, with near 180 pictures, mostly unpublished.



Further, JonG & Cedric... also do you both remember the photo series I shared at the AANA about the NachtJagd and convoy support at his time? Remember the NachtJagd Bf-110 series from Sicily with the belly landed a/c near Benghazi? It appears the night flying Bf-110's of I./NJG 3 in Sicily up to October of 1941 and then strengthened I thought with the II and III elements in that month are ommitted in the earlier OOB? They were flying night transport cover... and of course other operations... and I was trying to find the confirmation of their inclusion in the sorties to and from Sicily to NA ports and airlfields... from Benghazi to Barce. Would appreciate the Luftwaffe affecianados to confirm their participation directly.

Rodion also has some materials collected... on all of the Ju-88's in service in the MED and NA... at the close of 1941 for additional reference. Here are two photos from late 41 Winter for the Ju-88's from my Luftwaffe armorers album stationed at Benghazi... does this jog your memory?

[Nacht]

Just another side note... the push back to Sidi Rezegh of the British by Crüell had won the day on November 23 and the daily registry field notes of servicable 'runners' states that PR 5 had just 32 tanks & PR 8 a mere 65!

PR5

11 Pz.II's
16 Pz.III's
2 Pz.IV's
3 Befehls

PR8

18 Pz.II's
36 Pz.III's
7 Pz.IV's
4 Befehls

Also note that 30 of PR5's tanks did not move out at 10:30 hours on the 24th of November due to lack of fuel and Cruell had in vain attempted to talk Rommel out of the push toward Tobruk and only 56 of PR8's tanks could move on this next morning!

Rommel actually hitched a ride on a tank with Gen.Maj. Gause (interesting photo of Rommel sitting on PIII numbered 223) and it broke down and he had to wait for Ravenstein in his Mammoth to hitch a ride to the Egyptian border!!! Ravenstein could not find a place to cross the 'wire' and Rommel was so frustrated he took the driving wheel of the Mammoth from Ravenstein ( or his driver as the Rommel Papers account is unclear) and he rammed the barbed wire several times in vain... this was at a position only a few hundred meters from Fort Madelena and the rear elements of the 4th Indian Inf. Div. where they actually spent the night with the noises of the British trucks and motors running throughout the night of this the 24th of November! At daybreak Rommel headed out and finally crossed the wire! This is only one of the episodes about how close the Commonwealth forces came to capturing Rommel himself in 1941!

[Andreas]

Here is the sold out "Special"... per Cedric (13emeDBLE)himself at:
http://www.AFRIKAKORPS.Org/News.htm :

I don't think it is sold out, I was still able to order it last night. Unless of course the order process at the publisher is broken down.

All the best

Andreas

[Jon G.]

Thanks for the corrections on the 90th Light/Afrika Division z.b.V. For what it is worth, die deutsche Wehrmacht website has it as the Div.z.b.V."Afrika" on November 27 and as the 90.(leichte) ID on Dec 4. The Savona Division is also listed as part of the DAK until Nov 27.

Regarding the night fighters - that's interesting stuff. The very authoritative Luftwaffe site which I've linked to before states that the I./NJG 3 was flying out of Benghazi from May to Aug, and based at Derna from Aug to Oct. Although the unit is listed as operating under the Fliegerführer Afrika it could be that night time convoy protection (a capability which the RA didn't really have) was the responsibility of Fliegerkorps X rather than Fl. Fü. Afrika. That could explain why the night fighters are omitted from some Fliegerführer Afrika OOBs.

[Nacht]

JonG...

You might remember Rodion & my diatribe about the NJG/2's Ju-88's (which I shared two photos above) and then the first staffel of I/NJG3 and their Bf-110's... to clarify... only a part of the I/NJG3 was sent to Gela, Sicily... per my notes posted below... and had the ops. back and forth from Sicily to Derna (may have been NA recommended landing and refueling assignment) & other NA airfields... the famous belly landed photo with the twin forked tailed devil emblem on the right fuselage side and the perched owl sitting on the crescent moon that I had uncovered (from this very element or first staffel) was belly landed several months later at Tripoli in fact.




Notes:

1 Staffel I/NJG3 was the only element of I/NJG3 that used the Owl perched on the Moon emblem. This emblem was seen during their separation from 2 and 3 Staffeln for the period of 05/02/41 to 28/09/41 whilst 2 and 3 Staffeln stayed at Vichta!

Sorry to not be more clear but the citings at some of the premier websites for historical reference about Luftwaffe and DAK activities in NA do not talk sometimes clearly enough about the specifics of assignments and the splitting of unit equipment and personnel for a particular pressing need or the reassignment of equipment. Another case in point is the 606 and 612 FLAK that is listed previously here (OKH shipped versus received numbers and those lost in shipment across the Med give a different receipt number of units specifically for the 612 that I have shows the receipt of only 6 of the 20mm in the second Kp. instead of 12 and the transfer of 6 Horch Sd.Kfz.69's with 20mm from first Kp. to the Stab FLAK element of PR5 with the balance doing harbor FLAK protection at Benghazi and these are seen in some interesting color photos from Peitz' Color Photo book on the DAK and also seen published in other pubs.) but the specifics of their equipment and reassignment or allocation to other units and duties was another bit of research that we have dug out more empirical evidence and truths of late. AKA their Horch Sd.Kfz.69's with mounted 20mm's versus this chassis type with towed 20's and the additional field modifications done by other units to build this type vehicle and then we have the Stab contingents of the PR's or Divs. with greater priority to 'confiscate or acquire' going along with their priviledges of rank to gain requested equipment from other units. The sharing of both men and equipment as need demanded causes researchers to see a vehicle possibly assigned to PR5 (for example) in one month and then with PR8 for a few months and then back to PR5... specifically a Befehlspanzer III marked Red with white outline III. This was done on a much broader scale in the DAK as equipment shortages and the filling out of operational units demanded and unit commanders changed or exchanged.

I hope this helps a bit with the discussion... I was not lurking in the background but wanted to possibly explain why their is always room for clarification and more thorough study into the actualities of the purpose of this attempt at an OOB for Pre-Crusader... on a specific date of November 17, 1941... within three weeks of this starting date there were quite a few changes and exchanging of men and material on both sides to 'meat' out units or even to make them a fighting element.

You guys might help clear up the discussion with Rommel's request for clearing of the addition of CAM from the Italians in his efforts in this timeframe of operations against Tobruk? That might help to ellucidate the Savona confusion as well...

[Andreas]

The request to put CAM under Panzergruppe was made at a conference 9 October, and turned down. What Rommel got was an assurance of co-operation (auf Zusammenarbeit angewiesen), the sending of Trento into the Tobruk lines (effective 20-25 October, relieving Pavia and SR 115 at Ras el Madaur), and the pushing forward of CAM with Ariete to Bir el Gubi and Trieste to Bir Hacheim, where they arrived on 10 November, still not coming under Panzergruppe. That was the situation on the night 17/18 November. Savona has no relation to this.

All the best

Andreas

[Andreas]

Great thread by the way, if I may say so myself. Many thanks to everybody for their contributions.

Here are three pictures from the BA relating to the period. Two are from Rommel's visit to XXI. CA HQ on 21 November, one I find showing very well the tense atmosphere. The other one outside Tobruk on 29 November, when they overran elements of 2nd New Zealand Division.

Can anyone ID the other officers in the pictures?

All the best

Andreas

[13emeDBLE]

I don't think it is sold out, I was still able to order it last night. Unless of course the order process at the publisher is broken down.

All the best

Andreas

Andreas,

I've been told your order at armydoc. Do you want them to send you a signed copy ?

I will try to find something on the Savona's subordination, but no idea why some sources placed it under the DAK...

The DAK used to have the border area under its control during the summer and fall 1941 (the two Panzer-divisions spent the summer fortifying it, developping various tacticals systems, but after the italian took the sector, with only few german units supporting them...).

Regards,

CM

[Andreas]

Signed would be nice. Merci beaucoup.

I think Bardia/Sollum during Crusader is an overlooked issue, so that may explain why so many people get it wrong.

All the best

Andreas

[Nacht]

My CAM & Savona comment was to help other readers progress with the thread's intent of determination of the OOB on November 17, 1941... my input of the further examination of CAM and Savona was to simply try to gain more input about the component elements of the Italian forces and their change in direct management... plus the further change by January 30, 1942 of the forces under the control of Rommel being renamed "Panzerarmee AFRIKA" on that date.

This might start a more thorough look into the change in Italian force command structure... as on the 15th of August, 1941 Rommel's command was moved up in status to Panzergruppe (being renamed Panzergruppe AFRIKA) with the elements of 5./le. Div. being retitled 21./PD, the 15./PD, and the 90./le. as discussed earlier. These six Italian divisions were supposedly placed under Rommel's control on this August 15, 1941 date from much of the source literature.

Ariete & Trieste forming the XX Korps

Pavia, Bologna, & Brescia forming the XXI Korps

And then the Savona with the Gruppe's HQ at Beda Littoria and the "Panzerarmee AFRIKA" again being evolved from this combined force on the January 30, 1942 described date.

But the actual command structure of how the six Italian divisions were placed under Rommel's control might be in order by others more knowledgable in the Italian forces in NA?

[13emeDBLE]

Thanks Nacht and all for these infos.

I must check on my italians sources to see where Savona were placed under...

I will keep you in touch.

CM

[Andreas]

My CAM & Savona comment was to help other readers progress with the thread's intent of determination of the OOB on November 17, 1941... my input of the further examination of CAM and Savona was to simply try to gain more input about the component elements of the Italian forces and their change in direct management... plus the further change by January 30, 1942 of the forces under the control of Rommel being renamed "Panzerarmee AFRIKA" on that date.

This might start a more thorough look into the change in Italian force command structure... as on the 15th of August, 1941 Rommel's command was moved up in status to Panzergruppe (being renamed Panzergruppe AFRIKA) with the elements of 5./le. Div. being retitled 21./PD, the 15./PD, and the 90./le. as discussed earlier. These six Italian divisions were supposedly placed under Rommel's control on this August 15, 1941 date from much of the source literature.

Ariete & Trieste forming the XX Korps

Pavia, Bologna, & Brescia forming the XXI Korps

And then the Savona with the Gruppe's HQ at Beda Littoria and the "Panzerarmee AFRIKA" again being evolved from this combined force on the January 30, 1942 described date.

But the actual command structure of how the six Italian divisions were placed under Rommel's control might be in order by others more knowledgable in the Italian forces in NA?

Hi

I agree it is a bit confusing, but the situation regarding the Italian forces prior to the start of Crusader is quite clear, from German documents:

1. XXI. CA (+ Trento) - under command Panzergruppe
2. XX. CAM (-Trento) - to co-operate with Panzergruppe (auf Zusammenarbeit angewiesen), not under command
3. Savona (Abschnitt West) - under command Panzergruppe (cf. e.g. Befehlsgliederung of 19.11.)
4. Ital. fortress troops in Abschnitt Ost - under command Panzergruppe (cf. Befehlsgliederung 19.11.)

While it could theoretically be the case that all Italian formations were put under Panzergruppe when it was established on 15 August, I have serious doubts about that, since if that were the case, why was there a specific request to put XX. CAM under Panzergruppe on 9 October, which was refused?

By 30. Jan 42 Savona had ceased to exist, it surrendered on 17. Jan. to the besieging Commonwealth forces. The Italian forces in Abschnitt Ost had of course already surrendered on 2. January, as part of the fortress troops.

All the best

Andreas

[Jon G.]

...I think Bardia/Sollum during Crusader is an overlooked issue, so that may explain why so many people get it wrong...

Regarding the forces on the border, I'm copy-pasting from this thread on the Comando Supremo forum:

...Also the troops in the Wire were divided in two sectors:

East Sector: MajGen Artur Schmitt (he was also commander Korück 556)
-Bardia: 10. Oasen batt abv 300, Pionier batt 200?, 2/15 Reggiment Fant , 2/16 reggimento fant, IV gr sq mit Genova, 1cp btg carri V, 266 batt AT.
-Sollum: HQ Oasen Batt zbV 300 and 10. kp
-Halfaya: I Schützen regiment 104: Kap Bach
-Faltenbacher

West Sector: Gen De Giorgis, HQ. Bir Ghirba
(55th Savona division plus oasen kp)
-Cirener: 1/15 reggimento Fanteria
-D'Avanzo:
-Cova: 3/15 Reggimento Fanteria, 13. Oasen kp
-Frongia (Omar Nuovo (=Sidi Omar)): 3/16 reggimento Fanteria, HQ and 2 cp CLV Btg Mitraglieri, 2 btys 75/27mm 12 reggimento artiglieria,503 bty 20/65 mm, 1 bty Flak Regiment 18.
-Sidi Omar and Lybian Omar: HQ 16 reggimento, 1/16 reggimento, 3 cp CLV Btg Mitrag, 2 btys 105/28mm 12 reggimento artiglieria, 267 bty AT 65mm, 12. Kp Oasen...

As far as I know Bach was a major, not a captain. Also, according to Greene & Massignani there were 12 88 mm guns "on the Sollum front"; it would be interesting to know exactly how they were distributed between the various strong points.

Also the 3. Schnellbootflottille was transferred to North Africa in November. I just don't know the exact date for its transfer.

[Nacht]

Andreas,

Working up some names for individuals in your three photos... did not want you to think your post had been overlooked!

[Andreas]

Hi Nacht, many thanks, but I think the guys have been ID'd already by Dieter and Harmel:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=130689

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=130690

All the best

Andreas