Let's Build - Axis North African OOB 17 November 1941

[Lannes]

Also, according to Greene & Massignani there were 12 88 mm guns "on the Sollum front"; it would be interesting to know exactly how they were distributed between the various strong points.

According to R. Marwan-Schlosser, Adjutant Flak-Rgt 135, distribution was as follows:

Sidi Omar: 2 from 1a/18
Frongia: 2 from 1a/18
Cova: 2 from 2a/18
d'Avanzo: 2 from 2a/18
Cirener: 2 from 1./33
Falterbacher: 2 from 1./33
Halfaya: 4 from 2./33

1./ and 2./18 were the mobile reserve, 3./18 and 3./33 were tasked with air defense of Bardia, and the light batteries were spread over a variety of tasks and locations.

best regards
Aris Kosionidis

[Jon G.]

Thanks for your input, Lannes. May I ask where you got the information from? I've been trawling through Kriebel and Greene & Massignani, but they're both fairly un-specific about the dispositions of the border forces during Crusader.

[Lannes]

Marwan-Schlosser wrote a book about his time with Fla-Rgt 135, titled "Rommel's Flak als Pak". It's not a bad read, once you get used to the fact he refers to himself in the third person . It also includes parts of an "Erfahrungsbericht" he put together on Flak use in Africa.
Aris Kosionidis

[Andreas]

Maybe someone can answer this question?

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 71#1144071

All the best

Andreas

[13emeDBLE]

Hello Andreas,

I will try to answer your ask but unfortunately I'll not be at home since next sunday...

So you have to wait, or to rely on others members...

Regards,

CM

PS : Do you receive my book ? I am waiting your mail

[maxs75]

The Axis OOB list seems to be missing that one.

http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=628

Air
In Africa
5a Squadra Aerea
Sector East (Derna - main base)
8th Bombing Wing (S.79) Martuba Stormo = Wing?
13th Bombing Wing with 11th and 43rd Bombing Group (Br.20) Barce and Martuba 2
239th Dive Bombing Squadron (Ju 87) Derna
279th Torpedo Squadron (S.79) Derna
19th Squadron R.S.T. Transport? (S.79) Derna
20th Fighter Group (G.50) Martuba
155th Fighter Group with 351th and 378th Fighter Squadron (Mc.200) Ain Gazala
153rd Fighter Group (Mc. 200) Derna
376th Fighter Squadron (Cr.42) Bir Hacheim
67th Group with 129th Squadron O.A. (?) (Ro. 37b) Ain Gazala and Bir Hacheim

Sector Centre (Bengasi - main base)
244th Bombing Squadron (S.79) Bengasi
209th Dive Bombing Squadron (Ju 87) Bengasi
174th R.S.T.? Squadron (S.79) Berka
160th Fighter Group (Cr.42) Bengasi
360th Fighter Squadron of 155th Fighter Group (G.50) Bengasi
2nd Group APC (Ghibli) Berka
15th Group with 32nd and 125th Squadron O.A. (?) (Ca.311) Agedabia
196th R.M.? Squadron (Cz.511) Bengasi
Part nucleo? 145th Group "T" (S.81 and S.82) Bengasi
Section 614th Squadron Socc. (Sea Rescue?) (Cz.506) Bengasi

Sector West (C.Benito - main base)
98th Bombing Group (Br.20) C.Benito
236th Dive Bombing Squadron (Ju 87) C.Benito
175th R.S.T.? Squadron (S.79) C.Benito
3rd Fighter Group (Cr.42) Sorman
Section 3rd Fighter Group (Cr.42) Misurata
12th Fighter Group (G.50) C.Benito
69th Group O.A. (Ca.311) Zuara
1st Group APC (Ghibli) Mellaha
103rd Sahara Aviation Squadron (S.81) Misurata
Sub-Squadron Sahara Aviation (Ghibli) Hon
145th R.M.? Squadron (Cz.511 and S.74/S.75) Pisida
145th Group "T" (S.81 and S.82) C.Benito
614th Squadron Socc. (Sea Rescue?) (Cz.506) Karamanli

Fliegerführer Afrika

In Italy
X. Fliegerkorps

In Greece

From "La regia aeronautica 1939-1943" by N. Arena, vol 2.
5th Squadra 18 nov. 1941

West. sector:
Castel Benito:
- 98 Gp. BT (Sq. 240, 241) .....BR.20
- 175 Sq. RST ..................... SM79
- 236 Sq. BaT ...................... Ju-87
12 Gp. CT (159, 160, 165) .......G.50
145 Gp. T (600, 604, 610) ........SM.75/74/82
Sorman/Misurata:
3 Gp CT (153, 154, 155) .........CR42
Still in Italy, but assigned:
17 Gp. CT (71, 72, 80) ...........MC202 (I believe it is the first group of MC202 to ASI)
157 Gp CT (357, 384, 385) .....MC200
(total 145 planes, 104 ready)

Central sector:
Berka:
- 174 Sq. RST ..........................SM.79
Bengasi/Benina:
160 Gp. CT (Sq. 375, 393, 394) ..CR.42
360 Sq CT (155 Gp.) ..................G.50
239 Sq. BaT .............................Ju-87
244 Sq RS ................................SM.81
Sez. CN ...................................CR42
Total 82 planes, 54 ready

Eastern Sector:
Martuba:
8 Stormo BT (27 Gp (Sq 18, 52); 28 Gp (Sq. 10)) ...SM79
20 Gp. CT (Sq. 151, 352, 353)..............................G 50
Derna:
19 Sq. RS (of 28 Gp BT).......................................SM79
279 Sq. AS.........................................................SM79
209 Sq BaT.........................................................Ju-87
43 Gp BT (Sq 3,5) of 13 Stormo...........................BR.20
Barce:
13 Stormo BT (11Gp(Sq. 1,4)..............................BR.20
Ain el Gazala:
155 Gp CT (Sq 351, 378)......................................G50
376 Sq CT..........................................................CR42 b.a. (fighter-bombers)
Total 146, 105 ready

Aviazione Esercito (Army aviation)
15 Gp. OA (Sq. 32, 125)....Ca.311 ................Agedabia/Bengasi
67 Gp. OA (Sq. 129, 132)..Ca 311/Ro.37bis ..Ain Gazala/Bengasi
69 Gp. OA (Sq. 118, 123)..Ca.311...................Zuara
Total 52, 30 ready


Aviazione Marina(Naval aviation)
145 Sq. RM....Z.501 Pisida/Menelao
196 Sq. RM....Z.501 Bengasi
Sez. Soccorso (ASR) Z.506 Bengasi
Total 16, 11 ready

APC (Colony aviation)
1, 2 Gp APC with Ca.309, CR42, SM81

Grand total: 441, 304 ready
Bombers.....83-51
Torpedo.........5-4
Recce........26-15
Fighter....259-193
RM/OA.......68-41

Max

[Nacht]

Four areas always seem to be incomplete...

The Werkstatt and Repair units are incomplete in every reference I try to research... also...

Is the complete Search and Rescue aircraft and personnel information included... also need some definement on the Water Treatment and Purification Units and of course finally the Medical units.

[Urmel]

Hehe, I think I recognize those figures from Price I've tried piecing together a LW OOB for the latter half of November, but other than the clearly rounded figures* from The Rise and Fall of the German Air Force I haven't been able to find any strength figures for individual Gruppen on the eve of Crusader.

The III./JG 53's first appearance in North Africa was very brief. The Gruppe arrived at Tmimi on Dec. 6th (although the site I link to says Dec. 8); moved on to Derna on Dec 11, and back to Catania on Dec. 17th. The 8./JG 53 arriving at Benghazi a few days later on the 11th and leaving again for Catania on Dec 23.

*Namely a total of 190 a/c, of which 50 were single-engined fighters and 70 were Stukas.

On 27 NOv. Fligerführer Afrika reported (Type (unlike original not broken down by subtype) present/serviceable):

Staff flight:
Me 110 1/0

Fliegerführer:
Ju 52 1/0
C 445 9/0
FH 104 1/0
Me 108 1/0
Fi 156 1/0

Desert Rescue:
Fi 156 8/4 of which 1 in Benina, 3 in Derna

Staff flight StuG 3
Me 110 3/?
Ju 87 3/?
H 111 4/?
Me 108 1/0

I. Gruppe StuG1
Ju 87 27/18
C445 1/0

II. Gruppe StuG 2
Ju 87 26/17

I. Gruppe StuG3
Ju 87 26/23

Staff ZG 26
Me 110 2/2

7. ZG 26
Me 110 9/8

8. ZG 26
Me 110 7/5

9. ZG 26
5/4 with two aircraft in Tatoi (?) to change engines.

II. JG27
Me 109 19/12

I. JG27
Signals Flying unchange unit (no idea what this means)

2. H14 no report because of comms breakdown

10 KG zbV 1
Ju 52 12/0 4 a/c on ops

III. LG1
Ju 88 27/2 (3 a/c in Derna after ops)

[Peter W]

Can anyone tell me what forces were located at Bir Ghirba on 22/23 November 1941 when they were attacked by 21 (New Zealand) Battalion. Understand that the defenders were HQ 55 Savona Div HQ. Reports suggest there were tanks and anti-tank guns within the position, and plenty of MGs. Any Orbat/ numbers of personnel and types of tanks, weapons etc within the position would help. Are there any maps or diagrams of the defensive layout? What casualties were sustained by the defenders? Many thanks.

[dor1941]

Can anyone tell me what forces were located at Bir Ghirba on 22/23 November 1941 when they were attacked by 21 (New Zealand) Battalion. Understand that the defenders were HQ 55 Savona Div HQ. Reports suggest there were tanks and anti-tank guns within the position, and plenty of MGs. Any Orbat/ numbers of personnel and types of tanks, weapons etc within the position would help. Are there any maps or diagrams of the defensive layout? What casualties were sustained by the defenders? Many thanks.

Greene & Massignani (pp. 130-1) list the garrisons of Bardia, Halfaya/Faltenbacher and the six strongpoints held by D.f. Savona for Nov 17 '41(with a few errors and omissions). They record the following for Bir Ghirba:
-The divisional command
-One company of Arditi
-One company of L tanks (15)
-One engineer company
-One section of 100/17mm guns
-Two turrets from Matilda tanks mounted with 2-pounders
No mention is made of Italian casualties-they were probably minimal, judging from the NZ account of the action.
The source of this information on the garrisons is not noted in the text or by footnote, but the annotated bibliography includes Montanari and other possible sources. Sadly, the British, South African and New Zealand OH's provide only sketchy information on Italian troops in Crusader.

[Peter W]

Many thanks for your response. Apologies for not replying sooner. Regards, PWW

[dor1941]

Greene & Massignani (pp. 130-1) list the garrisons of Bardia, Halfaya/Faltenbacher and the six strongpoints held by D.f. Savona for Nov 17 '41(with a few errors and omissions). They record the following for Bir Ghirba:
-The divisional command
-One company of Arditi
-One company of L tanks (15)
-One engineer company
-One section of 100/17mm guns
-Two turrets from Matilda tanks mounted with 2-pounders
No mention is made of Italian casualties-they were probably minimal, judging from the NZ account of the action.
The source of this information on the garrisons is not noted in the text or by footnote, but the annotated bibliography includes Montanari and other possible sources.

Recently obtained a copy of Montanari (thru Amazon ) and found that the garrison of Bir Ghirba *was* quoted verbatim from p. 541 of his 2nd edition. There is a brief mention of the action with 21st N.Z. Battalion on p. 544 but no mention of casualties. Maps provided for the various settore of the Fronte Sidi Omar-Halfaya depict the Bir Ghirba position (schizzo n. 60) as oval and less than 1 1/2 km in diameter.
PWW, I hope that clarifies the source.

[David W]

How much did you have to pay for your copy of "Montanari"?

[dor1941]

How much did you have to pay for your copy of "Montanari"?

$99 U.S. for Vol. II-Tobruk, Le Operazioni in Africa Settentrionale-I confess I didn't do any comparison shopping :roll: .
It's over 900 pages-first impression is that it might be somewhat superficial, almost tries to cover too much. There are a few errors in the OOB's (German & Allied) and the maps aren't as colorful as Murphy's but for a purist this is the shiznit! It has far more unit details than the Allied OH's and covers air units/operations more extensively. I've had Agar-Hamilton since 1967 and Murphy since 1975 so I know Crusader pretty well which makes an Italian account easier to read. Has given new impetus to increasing my fluency .

[Peter W]

Thank you again dor1941 and David W for your responses and additional information about sources. They have helped me out a lot. I have been researching the action at Bir Ghirba as part of a study of the combat actions of the 21st (New Zealand) Battalion throughout WW2. I have had good access to official and unpublished sources here in NZ, however I have found information about the Bir Ghirba garrison challenging. There is quite a bit c/- Indian Official histories regarding the Omars, and a U.S. study as well, but little on Bir Ghirba. Thanks again, Peter W.