Tank ID request - Convoy M.42 in Benghazi 19 Dec 41

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Jon G.
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Re: Tank ID request - Convoy M.42 in Benghazi 19 Dec 41

Post by Jon G. » 26 Nov 2007 13:10

Back to your original question. While groping around for information for the other North Africa thread, I came across a photo caption on p. 174 of Panzertruppen I

Andreas wrote:On 19 December 1941 two ships with one German tank company each reached Tripoli and Benghazi (Ankara was the latter). Does anyone know what kind of tanks they were? My guess is Panzer III 50L60, but does anyone know for sure?


...which reads that 17 Panzer III J and 5 Panzer II F arrived at Benghazi on December 19th. These tanks were for the 3. company, Panzerregiment 8. The main text on the same page states that 17 Pz III and 6 Pz II (no sub-types given) for 7. company, PR 8 arrived at Tripoli the same day.

Ships sunk en route carried 34 Pz III and 11 Pz II, intended for the 3. and 7. companies of Panzerregiment 5.

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Post by Andreas » 26 Nov 2007 13:29

Many thanks Jon. So one solid face-hardened 50mm plate on these ones.

This appears relevant: http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/ttt0 ... ction.html

(3) 1941 Changes

In 1941, as more powerful guns were being used against tanks, 1.20 inches of additional armor plate was bolted against the plates on the front of the superstructure and on the upper and lower nose-plates. The 1.18-in. basic plates were face-hardened to a Brinell hardness of 600 to 800 and 1.20-in additional plates were the same. About a year later, in January 1942, the tank appeared with a basic armor of 1.96 inches on the front and back, the side-armor thickness remaining unchanged at 1.20 inches. This armor was face-hardened and performed well against monobloc shot, but once the face-hardening was pierced, the shell fragments penetrated the remainder with ease.

(4) 1942

Therefore, in June 1942, a .79-inch additional plate was bolted on the gun mantlet and front superstructure as a means to defeat a shot with a piercing cap. Between this plate and the basic armor was an air gap or space, varying from 4 to 8 inches. The plate conformed roughly to the shape of the section covered. The spaced armor seems to have been a field expedient, resulting undoubtedly from the demonstrated fact that the spare section of track carried on the front of German tanks gave additional protection. This method of adding armor was officially recognized, as later models had brackets fitted for installing spaced armor when desirable.


BTW - regarding the other thread... Never mind the AP quality of the 2-pdr, it seems at least the torpedoes were good enough. :)

All the best

Andreas

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Post by 13emeDBLE » 26 Nov 2007 13:34

Good Job Jon !

I will complete my own datas. I have the list of Panzers transported to NA, but not the serie...

To complete my answer on the 1st page, the number of MT (motortruck) is given for german Heere only. I haven't the informations for Luftwaffe, KGM or Italians...

So perhaps the total of MT on the ship is bigger ?

My listing is directly extracted from scans of documents (not from a published work, where sometimes typos can occured, even for the best :wink: ).

regards,

CM

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Re: Tank ID request - Convoy M.42 in Benghazi 19 Dec 41

Post by Urmel » 06 Mar 2013 12:46

Jon G. wrote:Back to your original question. While groping around for information for the other North Africa thread, I came across a photo caption on p. 174 of Panzertruppen I
Andreas wrote:On 19 December 1941 two ships with one German tank company each reached Tripoli and Benghazi (Ankara was the latter). Does anyone know what kind of tanks they were? My guess is Panzer III 50L60, but does anyone know for sure?
...which reads that 17 Panzer III J and 5 Panzer II F arrived at Benghazi on December 19th. These tanks were for the 3. company, Panzerregiment 8. The main text on the same page states that 17 Pz III and 6 Pz II (no sub-types given) for 7. company, PR 8 arrived at Tripoli the same day.

Ships sunk en route carried 34 Pz III and 11 Pz II, intended for the 3. and 7. companies of Panzerregiment 5.
Were there also 52 Italian tanks sunk?
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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David W
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Re: Tank ID request - Convoy M.42 in Benghazi 19 Dec 41

Post by David W » 06 Mar 2013 13:00

I would imagine that the PzKpfw III ausf J were 50mm L/42 at that time.

I have 52 Carri (M) arriving at either Tripoli or Benghasi on 05/01/42 (for X Btg I think). Perhaps these were delayed from 19/12/41, or replacements if the originals were sunk. I don't know.

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Re: Tank ID request - Convoy M.42 in Benghazi 19 Dec 41

Post by Urmel » 06 Mar 2013 13:06

No, that would be a different consignment. :)
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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David W
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Re: Tank ID request - Convoy M.42 in Benghazi 19 Dec 41

Post by David W » 06 Mar 2013 13:16

OK Thanks.

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Re: Tank ID request - Convoy M.42 in Benghazi 19 Dec 41

Post by David W » 10 Sep 2013 18:57

Slightly off topic, but not worth starting a new thread for......

Does anyone have any detailas on either convoys M43 or T18. Both January 1942 I think.

Thanks.

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Urmel
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Re: Tank ID request - Convoy M.42 in Benghazi 19 Dec 41

Post by Urmel » 12 Sep 2013 07:26

M.43 - loaded in late December, battleship convoy, five vessels and one tanker. Arrived without a hitch despite RN sub attacks in Tripoli on 5 Jan 42.

T.18 - loaded in mid-January, battleship convoy. Liner Victoria as leader, (nice pictures here MN Victoria), four freighters. Victoria sunk by Albacores of FAA operating from Berka aerodrome in Cyrenaica, about 350 of 1,400 soldiers embarked on her killed in the attack. No other losses, even though it was under fairly constant air attack including high-level bombing from RAF Liberators or B17s (need to check which).

The next big operation was K.7 at the end of February.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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David W
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Re: Tank ID request - Convoy M.42 in Benghazi 19 Dec 41

Post by David W » 13 Sep 2013 00:17

Thanks for that.

Do you know what Axis equipment was unloaded from each?

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Re: Tank ID request - Convoy M.42 in Benghazi 19 Dec 41

Post by Urmel » 13 Sep 2013 03:16

I'll have to look it up. I'min Kazakhstan at the moment, will do so when I get back.

Arrival date of T.18 was 23 Jan by the way.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: Tank ID request - Convoy M.42 in Benghazi 19 Dec 41

Post by jwsleser » 13 Sep 2013 21:50

This is of interest and on topic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjRcKuLCD3o

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