How much capacitive Alexandria port each month?

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diggerland
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How much capacitive Alexandria port each month?

Post by diggerland » 26 Jun 2008 17:17

I know that Tripoli capacitive 45,000t/month. But I don't know such Alexandria port, Allies port's capacitive.

So, I didn't contrasted Axis and Allies supply material -such ammunition, fuel, truck, car, tank, soldiers, plane-.




P.S.-sorry, I am not good at speak English.

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sallyg
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Re: How much capacitive Alexandria port each month?

Post by sallyg » 26 Jun 2008 19:30

No idea.

But bear in mind that although Alexandria was a great Mediterranean naval base for Britain and normally a decent seaport the British supplied Egypt around the Cape of Good Hope and into the Gulf of Aqaba.

This avoids running the gauntlet of Axis firepower. Exceptions were the "Tiger" convoys pushing through urgently needed tanks.

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Michael Emrys
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Re: How much capacitive Alexandria port each month?

Post by Michael Emrys » 26 Jun 2008 19:35

sallyg wrote:...into the Gulf of Aqaba.
You sure it wasn't the Gulf of Suez?

I think the main Allied destination ports for the Middle East were Suez and perhaps Port Said, but I'll admit I am not the resident expert on this subject.

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sallyg
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Re: How much capacitive Alexandria port each month?

Post by sallyg » 26 Jun 2008 20:53

You're right.

I turned right towards Aqaba and Eliat at Sharm El Sheikh instead of left towards Suez and the canal.

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Jon G.
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Re: How much capacitive Alexandria port each month?

Post by Jon G. » 27 Jun 2008 01:24

diggerland wrote:I know that Tripoli capacitive 45,000t/month. But I don't know such Alexandria port, Allies port's capacitive.

So, I didn't contrasted Axis and Allies supply material -such ammunition, fuel, truck, car, tank, soldiers, plane-.
P.S.-sorry, I am not good at speak English.
Welcome to the forum diggerland, and don't worry too much about your English :)

The capacity of Axis ports is discussed in these threads amongst others:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=63008

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=93416

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 6&t=136337

...a thread about British/British controlled ports is overdue, I think. So thanks for asking this question. Port capacity is a slippery subject as the other threads will show.
sallyg wrote:...But bear in mind that although Alexandria was a great Mediterranean naval base for Britain and normally a decent seaport the British supplied Egypt around the Cape of Good Hope ...
True, but to the Royal Navy Alexandria was second best to Malta in terms of facilities. Also, when Tobruk was in British hands coastal shipping from Alexandria could alleviate the long overland supply line through parts of Egypt and Libya.

IIRC Alexandria's capacity was expanded during the war, but not by as much as Port Said and the other Suez ports because most British shipping to the Mediterranean ran via the Cape as sallyg explains.

I'll try and return with some graphics and hopefully some numbers later.

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The_Enigma
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Re: How much capacitive Alexandria port each month?

Post by The_Enigma » 27 Jun 2008 03:05

Both Alexandria and Port Said were expanded iirc new jetties and deep water berths put under construction along with developing the marshalling yards and railroad system around that area.

With the Germans dropping mines into the canal every now and again, Alexandria and Said under random air attack, Suez it seems turned into the major supply point for the Army. Playfair states that within 8 months the ports capacity had doubled (although no tonnage figures are given) even wharves etc had been built along the canal itself along with massive road and rail improvements inland to get to were they were needed.(p. 327, Vol I middle east series)

Pp. 327-328 he notes that once mining of the canal began it was decided to develop Suez to its upmost capacity as well as construct a pipeline from near Suez to Port Said to pump naval fuel. It was also decided to double the railway between Suez and Ismailia and develop Ataqa (where ever that is) as a port to unload vechiles at.

I guess the question is what sort of tonnage could Suez/Ataqa/the canal and other ports and landing areas around the Red Sea could take.

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Re: How much capacitive Alexandria port each month?

Post by Jon G. » 27 Jun 2008 03:24

Thanks for the Playfair reference. He was one of the authors I had in mind. I posted some images of North African ports here http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 1#p1050011 The maps were drawn post-war by US Army cartographers.

I hope to be able to expand a bit later. I have a wartime geographic article about the harbours of Africa somewhere. Once I've dug it out, I'll post a picture or two of Alexandria. Still going strictly by memory, Alexandria's harbour was built on a promontory (or whatever it's called in English) projecting into the Mediterranean with a port bassin on each side (east and west) of the promontory - the west side (still IIRC) was the most storm-prone one, and was proteced by a long breakwater, while the quiter east side was reserved for naval vessels, at least in peacetime.

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sallyg
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Re: How much capacitive Alexandria port each month?

Post by sallyg » 27 Jun 2008 04:14

Promontory it is. Today the eastern basin is for tourists and yachts. The western basin is naval/commercial.

On your linked maps Ataka is just south of Suez.

Image

Cool maps.

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Re: How much capacitive Alexandria port each month?

Post by JonS » 27 Jun 2008 04:27

Jon G. wrote:Still going strictly by memory, Alexandria's harbour was built on a promontory (or whatever it's called in English) projecting into the Mediterranean with a port bassin on each side (east and west) of the promontory - the west side (still IIRC) was the most storm-prone one, and was proteced by a long breakwater, while the quiter east side was reserved for naval vessels, at least in peacetime.
I believe the famous December 1941 X-MAS raid was conducted into the western basin. FWIW.

This map is of the tramways in Alex ( :roll: ) but it shows the layout...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Sras ... ia1996.png
Last edited by JonS on 27 Jun 2008 04:40, edited 3 times in total.

diggerland
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Re: How much capacitive Alexandria port each month?

Post by diggerland » 27 Jun 2008 04:29

Thanks guys.
So, Allies supply routes are;
(1)Britain-the Mediterranean- Alexandria port
(2)Britain- East Africa- land route
(3)Britain- Cape of Good Hope- Suez canal(or Suez port)- Alexandria port
(4)Britain(or India)- Persian Gulf -Al Kuwayt
(5)Red Sea- Aqba port.
Is that Right?


So, How much used Allies supply material?
I think, Axis power had supply porblem, Allies also had same problem.

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Re: How much capacitive Alexandria port each month?

Post by JonS » 27 Jun 2008 04:46

diggerland wrote:Allies supply routes are;
(1)Britain-the Mediterranean- Alexandria port
Used very little during the war till Sicily had been captured.
(2)Britain- East Africa- land route
Not really - the distances invovled are huge, and it'd generally be quicker to just sail up to Suez.
(3)Britain- Cape of Good Hope- Suez canal(or Suez port)- Alexandria port
Yep, the main one.
(4)Britain(or India)- Persian Gulf -Al Kuwayt
To a certain degree, but nothing for the Med would have gone that way. OTOH, quite a lot of oil came out along that route.
(5)Red Sea- Aqba port.
Aqaba was developed during the war - especially during periods when it looked like Alex and Cairo might fall - but never really used I believe.
Is that Right?
Pretty much, but also

(6) Britian - West Africa/Takoradi. A lot of a/c were flown to Egypt this way, rather than floating them round South Africa. I suppose small quantities of urgent supplies and VIPs went that way also.

(7) West Coast US/Australasia/india - Suez. Stuff - and troops! - came direct from the colonies to this area.
I think, Axis power had supply porblem, Allies also had same problem.
Their problems were of a different nature. The Commonwealth had ridiculously long supply lines, but they were reasonably secure, and at the end of it was a very well developed - and secure - base area at the Nile Delta. Also, a certain amount of the supply reqts were able to be met from the Nile Delta area itself. The Italo Germans had shorter, but insecure supply lines, and had essentially no base area infrastructure in Africa.

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sallyg
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Re: How much capacitive Alexandria port each month?

Post by sallyg » 27 Jun 2008 04:51

Compliments of Google Earth

Via ship: Gibraltar to Alexandria: 3,378 km

Straight line: Alexandria to El Alamein: 125 km

Via ship: Gibraltar to Suez: 19,975 km

Straight line: Suez to El Alamein: 375 km

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Re: How much capacitive Alexandria port each month?

Post by JonS » 27 Jun 2008 05:08

sallyg wrote:Via ship: Gibraltar to Suez: 19,975 km
... which is 45 days steaming at 10 knots. (and 8 1/2 days from Gib to Alex at that speed)

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Re: How much capacitive Alexandria port each month?

Post by Jon G. » 27 Jun 2008 08:24

JonS wrote:...This map is of the tramways in Alex ( :roll: ) but it shows the layout...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Sras ... ia1996.png
Nice map! Caters nicely to my choo-choo fetish. Any chance of a map showing the lay-out of Sidi Barrani's trams in 1940? :)

Anyway, the article I was babbling about above is George F. Deasy's The Harbours of Africa from Economic Geography, Vol. 18, No. 4, (Oct.1942)

Here is a basic map of Alexandria which I am including only because it is from 1942:
Image

Deasy describes Alexandria as very well-developed and one of the best ports of North Africa - the best ports were in Tunisia. Alexandria was dredged to 36 feet. Compare that to the 24 feet of Tripoli, 26 feet of Benghazi and 30 feet of Tobruk (not dredged in Tobruk, it's naturally deep); the depths of Port Said and Suez are both given as 30 feet - but note that Deasy's article is from October 1942, and depending on where and when he gathered his data these depths may not hold true for the pre-October 1942 period.

I also managed to mix up the east and west bassins :roll: It's the west bassin which was used by the RN. The breakwater protecting that bassin was two miles long, the inverted L shaped pier was 1½ miles long. The east bassin was used for local shipping traffic. Deasy describes Alexandria's facilities as 'excellent'; they definitely included cranes, storage facilities and railroad lines for the quick removal of stores.

Finally, from Deasy's article, here is a period picture of Alexandria:
Image

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Re: How much capacitive Alexandria port each month?

Post by diggerland » 27 Jun 2008 09:15

wow, very big harbor. Thanks.

So, nobody didn't know Allies supply material quantity.
Why Allies supply report no have? Axis have very many it, although.
I do not understand it.

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