6th RTR in CRUSADER who killed them..

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David W
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Re: 6th RTR in CRUSADER who killed them..

Post by David W » 20 Sep 2009 10:31

Excellent news! :)

Can the missing months be found on-line?

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Urmel
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Re: 6th RTR in CRUSADER who killed them..

Post by Urmel » 20 Sep 2009 18:00

Send me a PM
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: 6th RTR in CRUSADER who killed them..

Post by Urmel » 20 Sep 2009 21:32

Apart from that, I wanted to add this was a good discussion, which made me look through the material I have, thus uncovering lots of data, and which raised some questions will merit more in-depth analysis and a write-up at a later stage.

Many thanks to the participants and to edouard for raising the original question.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: 6th RTR in CRUSADER who killed them..

Post by eduard » 21 Sep 2009 09:26

wow !! Wonderful information.

Great those "lost diaries" have been found. Always fustrated by this "holes" in history. Specially when one cannot consult the original papers easily.

My own guess. From other post in the forums about 605 Pzj. Abt.: It was subordinated to Afrika division in November 1941. And ordered to Belhamed area. 1st. Ko. arrived there the 21st. and the rest followed.
At belhamed was the 900 pi. Abt. mostly armed with Light Machineguns and just 2x pak 35/36 and one Spzb 28mm.

I imagine the elements of 6th RTR dealing easily with a zug of 1st KO. pzjag abt and then being shoot by the reaminder of the unit, the At guns of the infantry and maybe some reinforcing 88mm AA guns.

100 K18 guns and other heavy artillery had the theorical capability to engage tanks, but I doubt them trying to engage the fast moving crusaders with direct fire.

Unknow to me that there were any Italian tanks over there. If so, they would have been light L3's from one of the Italian infantry divisions and probably would have been easily recognissed, destroyed and identified.

Other victims could have been other german light tanks Pz I, Pz II but no reason to be there...

Eduard

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Re: 6th RTR in CRUSADER who killed them..

Post by Urmel » 21 Sep 2009 19:08

I have not seen any evidence of 6 RTR encountering 605. PzJgAbt, and I doubt that somehow. The specific claim in the British/SA histories is that AA3 with attached 88s sorted them out. Everything else is just speculation, more or less informed.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: 6th RTR in CRUSADER who killed them..

Post by David W » 21 Sep 2009 23:43

At belhamed was the 900 pi. Abt. mostly armed with Light Machineguns and just 2x pak 35/36 and one Spzb 28mm.
Probably. But I for one don't have an accurate T.o&e for that time frame.

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Re: 6th RTR in CRUSADER who killed them..

Post by Urmel » 22 Sep 2009 22:56

David W wrote:
At belhamed was the 900 pi. Abt. mostly armed with Light Machineguns and just 2x pak 35/36 and one Spzb 28mm.
Probably. But I for one don't have an accurate T.o&e for that time frame.
It's this one
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: 6th RTR in CRUSADER who killed them..

Post by David W » 23 Sep 2009 07:32

I don't know, as it doesn't quote it's sources as being "Soll" or "Ist".

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Re: 6th RTR in CRUSADER who killed them..

Post by Urmel » 23 Sep 2009 21:05

It's definitely 'Ist', since there is no 'Soll' that you could relate to the numbers in it.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: 6th RTR in CRUSADER who killed them..

Post by David W » 24 Sep 2009 00:02

Jbond.

Unless you know something that I don't about these specific figures, the presence of only one set of numbers can not surely prove either way if they are Soll or Ist?
Last edited by David W on 24 Sep 2009 14:18, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 6th RTR in CRUSADER who killed them..

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 24 Sep 2009 12:42

David, I agree and without a "Soll" upon which the unit can be organised then you can't really have an "Ist" reporting how it has been organised .
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Re: 6th RTR in CRUSADER who killed them..

Post by David W » 24 Sep 2009 14:19

Thank you Alan. :)

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Re: 6th RTR in CRUSADER who killed them..

Post by Urmel » 24 Sep 2009 23:22

David W wrote:Jbond.

Unless you know something that I don't about these specific figures, the presence of only one set of numbers can not surely prove either way if they are Soll or Ist?
Yes it can, if you know what a typical unit should look like.
Alanmccoubrey wrote:David, I agree and without a "Soll" upon which the unit can be organised then you can't really have an "Ist" reporting how it has been organised .
Sorry, this does not make sense, and I don't think you have understood the meaning of the word IST. IST- is the strength of a formation at a given point in time. It has no relation to SOLL. SOLL is the theoretical strength the unit ought to have. You only need both figures if you want to understand how much weaker or stronger than SOLLthe unit is at a given point, i.e. the difference. Your argument is essentially the same as saying that I can only know my weight today if I know my ideal Body Mass Index. I only need to know my ideal BMI if I want to know whether I am overweight, and by how much.

In this case, a closer look at the report makes clear that it is IST. Unless someone here can show me a SOLL that calls for the establishment of infantry battalions without support weapons, or a reconnaissance company with three captured carriers.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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David W
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Re: 6th RTR in CRUSADER who killed them..

Post by David W » 25 Sep 2009 07:38

jbond.

I fully understand the difference between Soll & Ist.

Very often people quote the theoretical Soll as if it is gospel.

I try to deal solely with Ist.

My point was that you seemed to be implying here
It's definitely 'Ist', since there is no 'Soll' that you could relate to the numbers in it.
That it had to be Ist as their was no second set of numbers present. Which did not make sense. Which is wht I went on to ask this
Unless you know something that I don't about these specific figures, the presence of only one set of numbers can not surely prove either way if they are Soll or Ist?
Does that now make sense?

I now understand also that the figures you were quoting were indeed Ist.


Hope that clears everything up! :)

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Re: 6th RTR in CRUSADER who killed them..

Post by eduard » 25 Sep 2009 09:12

The information about 900 Pi. Abt. comes from the magazine "panzer Voran2 number 15." It reviews the "gliederung" of DAK units before " Crusader".

I have mixed feelings about the information of the gliederung studied: sometimes it seems its the actual equippement of the diferent units but sometimes seems some kind of "future" organissation "desideratum" because for example includes 707 and 708 self propelled SIG that for sure were not in afrika at that time and also at firs mentions more than 20 russian 76mm AT guns and other strange 75mm self propelled of French origin at dispossition of the DAK not assigned to any unit.

Eduard

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