6th RTR in CRUSADER who killed them..

Discussions on WW2 in Africa & the Mediterranean. Hosted by Andy H
User avatar
Urmel
Member
Posts: 4242
Joined: 25 Aug 2008 09:34
Location: The late JBond

Re: 6th RTR in CRUSADER who killed them..

Post by Urmel » 06 Apr 2013 10:28

Ah yes, those magnificent guys in their tanks. :)

http://crusaderproject.wordpress.com/20 ... -breakout/

And I tend to forget that 5 SAY Brigade was actually supposed to do something else than die magnificently. :(
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

User avatar
Urmel
Member
Posts: 4242
Joined: 25 Aug 2008 09:34
Location: The late JBond

Re: 6th RTR in CRUSADER who killed them..

Post by Urmel » 14 Nov 2013 11:21

More grist to the mill. This is from the 30 Corps narrative. Based on this 6 R.T.R. was ordered to cross the escarpment, so it was not a question of the Lt.Col. getting carried away. Furthermore, the preceding paragraph in the narrative states that Davey was responsible for the operation until Campbell took over after 0805 hours on the morning of the 20th.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

User avatar
Urmel
Member
Posts: 4242
Joined: 25 Aug 2008 09:34
Location: The late JBond

Re: 6th RTR in CRUSADER who killed them..

Post by Urmel » 29 Sep 2014 10:25

Came across this today, nothing new in terms of the operational issues, but a tank-turret view by the OC 'B' Squadron 6 R.T.R.

http://rommelsriposte.com/2014/09/29/in ... m-the-iwm/
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

User avatar
John Hilly
Member
Posts: 2593
Joined: 26 Jan 2010 09:33
Location: Tampere, Finland, EU

Re: 6th RTR in CRUSADER who killed them..

Post by John Hilly » 30 Sep 2014 11:15

Trying to play the video I got message
Error loading player:
No playable sources found


With best, J-P :milwink:
"Die Blechtrommel trommelt noch!"

User avatar
Urmel
Member
Posts: 4242
Joined: 25 Aug 2008 09:34
Location: The late JBond

Re: 6th RTR in CRUSADER who killed them..

Post by Urmel » 30 Sep 2014 11:18

They seem to have some trouble at the moment.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

User avatar
Don Juan
Member
Posts: 595
Joined: 23 Sep 2013 10:12

Re: 6th RTR in CRUSADER who killed them..

Post by Don Juan » 14 Oct 2014 14:23

I transcribed a chunk of Miller's account yonks ago. Here 'tis:
"Morale was high, one reckoned we had jolly good tanks though actually we saw more clearly we didn't."

By end of June we were complete, and we did training. What it did not consist of, we did not train with any other arm of the service, which is most extraordinary, looking back on it. One exercise we did, which was interesting it was, tank transporters were quite a novelty - we practised moving our squadron by night, by tank transporter, and I led them across the desert and suddenly there was a noise rather like machine gun fire, which I couldn't quite understand. I found out that we'd hit a large telegraph pole that had just been erected and these poles broke off one after the other, just like machine gun fire. Our Signals must have been very annoyed, because normally the maps are marked with these various things, we know about them, but we hadn't been told about this line, so it was a rather extraordinary experience, and I was jolly lucky I (didn't) have my head sliced off by this wire.

We trained til we moved forward towards the wire for Operation CRUSADER, in November 1941. Looking back, morale was high, one reckoned we had jolly good tanks though actually we saw more clearly we didn't. But morale was high, and people were not worried. They thought, well, when we attack we'll just go straight through. One doesn't look far ahead, I think, under those circumstances.

One extraordinary thing was the darkness, when there was no moon to go from your bivvy, we had single man bivvies, to go to, say, the mess tent, which was about 30-40 yards, would often take you well over half an hour because you'd be completely lost, and some people would be lost overnight, too, just going a very short distance, completely black, and with no lights and with no reference points. It was most alarming.

We started off with tanks disguised as lorries. We had lorry tops, camouflaged lorry tops, which fitted to the tanks, which were released by pulling a string. Many of these things fell off on the way, they were very poorly made.

We got through the wire, and then the South African armoured car company, I think it was 4th, were ahead of us and they sent out their reconnaissance report, and they were extremely good, very clear on the air; very clear, clipped messages. They sent about what they saw and so on, and though we saw during the previous night signs of a tremendous thunderstorm and things to our north, and some of the German airfields round Tobruk were flooded, we saw apparently no signs of the rain on our way. Well, we proceeded northwest and eventually we came on an escarpment overlooking Sidi Rezegh airfield, which was still being operated by fighters, German and Italian fighers. Two squadrons sort of charged the airfield and seized it and there were 16 fighters still on the ground.

My squadron and another squadron both went down, seized the airfield, and then it was about dusk, and we leaguered there for the night on the airfield. And I think if I remember rightly we set a tank to drive over the tails of the aircraft there, I think we did that. No casualties - we hadn't met the German Army then, you see. Then we leaguered in the normal night-time formation, a ring of tanks, and in the course of the night there was some alarm, and one of the tanks opened fire and hit another tank, and sadly killed a young officer. The following morning, the Germans approached from the northwest, and we had a brush with them, and they withdrew, and we stayed on the aerodrome. The Germans shelled us a bit during the day. They had a German Mk.IV tank, with a 75mm gun, which shot at us from time to time. I had one shot back - I stood on my recoil guard to get maximum elevation and shot just in frustration really. It couldn't do any harm, really, but it did raise my morale a bit. And then we stayed there the whole day. Although we'd been under fire, we'd no casualties as far as I know. My tank was hit in one or two places, it did minor damage, but nothing of note. Then the following day we had orders to advance to the Trigh Capuzzo, it ran just north of the Tobruk defences, the idea being that we could link up with the Tobruk garrison breaking out. And we set off, the rifle brigade were with us then, by this time, it was B Company, 1st RB I think it was. We advance in a northwesterly direction, and there was complete and utter chaos. A lot of smoke, a lot of dust. The escarpment just to the east of Sidi Rezegh tomb, I got down the other side alright and a German staff car appeared, which I shot at, and the Germans got out of the car and disappeared into one of these dry cistern wells they have in the Western Desert, so that was that. And then my driver was wounded, and I said "can you hang on for a bit? And we'll drive into a wadi somewhere and get under cover". So I saw a wadi ahead of us, but unfortunately when I got there the wadi was full of German troops. However we had to change the driver.
I didn't finish it because it contradicts Sergeant Stephen Kennedy, C Squadron 6 RTR's account so much that I became confoozed and gave up.

Of all the accounts of Sidi Rezegh I've been through, the one and only thing that they all agree on is that they destroyed the aircraft on the airfield by driving over their tails.
"The demonstration, as a demonstration, was a failure. The sunshield would not fit the tank. Altogether it was rather typically Middle Easty."
- 7th Armoured Brigade War Diary, 30th August 1941

PF
Member
Posts: 2127
Joined: 27 Oct 2004 13:19
Location: USA

Re: 6th RTR in CRUSADER who killed them..

Post by PF » 06 Nov 2014 17:23

6th RTR diaries listed in following source
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6th_Royal_Tank_Regiment

Hope this helps

User avatar
Urmel
Member
Posts: 4242
Joined: 25 Aug 2008 09:34
Location: The late JBond

Re: 6th RTR in CRUSADER who killed them..

Post by Urmel » 06 Nov 2014 17:39

PF wrote:6th RTR diaries listed in following source
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6th_Royal_Tank_Regiment

Hope this helps
Well that's the source missing November 41. Which is why I put the transcript here:

http://rommelsriposte.com/2009/11/01/th ... -of-6-rtr/
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

User avatar
Urmel
Member
Posts: 4242
Joined: 25 Aug 2008 09:34
Location: The late JBond

Re: 6th RTR in CRUSADER who killed them..

Post by Urmel » 13 Oct 2018 09:09

Don Juan wrote:
14 Oct 2014 14:23
Of all the accounts of Sidi Rezegh I've been through, the one and only thing that they all agree on is that they destroyed the aircraft on the airfield by driving over their tails.
Except they didn't.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

User avatar
Urmel
Member
Posts: 4242
Joined: 25 Aug 2008 09:34
Location: The late JBond

Re: 6th RTR in CRUSADER who killed them..

Post by Urmel » 13 Oct 2018 09:52

Okay, I had another look while checking something else. I note that MG8 reported an enemy counter attack with tanks, during which 16 tanks were destroyed, and 80 or so POW made. That fits the pattern, even though it's not dated, other than being clearly before 23 November.

Also, A.A.3 involved is probably confirmed. It had 2./Flak18 under command, which I presume was an 88 battery. It reports for the morning of 21 November that it fought off enemy tanks that had broken through the positions on the Jebel. They had arrived there and been placed on the left (eastern) flank the night before.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

User avatar
David W
Member
Posts: 3459
Joined: 28 Mar 2004 01:30
Location: Devon, England

Re: 6th RTR in CRUSADER who killed them..

Post by David W » 13 Oct 2018 10:12

It had 2./Flak18 under command, which I presume was an 88 battery.

It was.

User avatar
Urmel
Member
Posts: 4242
Joined: 25 Aug 2008 09:34
Location: The late JBond

Re: 6th RTR in CRUSADER who killed them..

Post by Urmel » 13 Oct 2018 11:12

Thanks!
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

User avatar
David W
Member
Posts: 3459
Joined: 28 Mar 2004 01:30
Location: Devon, England

Re: 6th RTR in CRUSADER who killed them..

Post by David W » 13 Oct 2018 11:25

The Gem FlaK units should be 1,2 & 3 Battery 88mm. 4 & 5 battery 20mm.

MarkN
Member
Posts: 2549
Joined: 12 Jan 2015 13:34
Location: On the continent

Re: 6th RTR in CRUSADER who killed them..

Post by MarkN » 13 Oct 2018 22:46

David W wrote:
13 Oct 2018 11:25
The Gem FlaK units should be 1,2 & 3 Battery 88mm. 4 & 5 battery 20mm.
Certainly that was the organisational structure, the 'soll', but what was it like on that particular day. the 'ist'?

MarkN
Member
Posts: 2549
Joined: 12 Jan 2015 13:34
Location: On the continent

Re: 6th RTR in CRUSADER who killed them..

Post by MarkN » 14 Oct 2018 15:02

Urmel wrote:
13 Oct 2018 09:52
Okay, I had another look while checking something else. I note that MG8 reported an enemy counter attack with tanks, during which 16 tanks were destroyed, and 80 or so POW made. That fits the pattern, even though it's not dated, other than being clearly before 23 November.

Also, A.A.3 involved is probably confirmed. It had 2./Flak18 under command, which I presume was an 88 battery. It reports for the morning of 21 November that it fought off enemy tanks that had broken through the positions on the Jebel. They had arrived there and been placed on the left (eastern) flank the night before.
Reproduction quality is very poor, I know. However, ....

Image
Image

Also, somewhat better quality,...

Image
Image

... and ...

Image

Return to “WW2 in Africa & the Mediterranean”