Operation Crusader - the German outposts at Halfaya and Bar

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halfaya
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Operation Crusader - the German outposts at Halfaya and Bar

Post by halfaya » 29 Apr 2011 12:38

Could anyone provide me the OoB of both these garrisons (Bach at Halfaya and Schmitt at Bardia) and their fate ??
I think they surrendered to the British in the second half of December 1941.
Thanks,

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Re: Operation Crusader - the German outposts at Halfaya and

Post by Kingfish » 29 Apr 2011 13:33


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Urmel
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Re: Operation Crusader - the German outposts at Halfaya and

Post by Urmel » 29 Apr 2011 14:23

There was a substantial Italian garrison, and the eastern sector was under General Fedele de Girogis, who together with Schmitt received the Ritterkreuz for his defense:

http://crusaderproject.wordpress.com/20 ... mber-1941/

http://crusaderproject.wordpress.com/20 ... z-b-v-300/
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: Operation Crusader - the German outposts at Halfaya and

Post by Oasis » 29 Apr 2011 17:38

I have only some informations about Bach:

- in April '41 Cap. BAch is in Halfaya with 6/VIII btn plus half Co. of 72. 47/mm guns
- in May '41 his defence section runs from coast (Q.10) to the "Madonnina" with I/104 fusiliers and 4 guns 88/55
- on December 23 '41 is with his btn in Lower Sollum
- on December 31 '41 Maj. W. Bach is in Halfaya with I/104 mot., 10th Co. "Oasen", 2. Regt. Celere Artillery (italian Articelere), one Gruppo di Formazione of 2nd Articelere with 105/28, one 20/mm battery, one battery 155/mm (french), 3 guns Flak 88/mm
- on January 17 '42 Bach surrenders to South Africans at Halfaya Pass and many of his men, after surrender, are killed or injured by a small group of France Libre.
Regards
Oasis

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Re: Operation Crusader - the German outposts at Halfaya and

Post by Urmel » 30 Apr 2011 18:56

Oasis

I don't think Bach would have been at Lower Sollum? Who was at Halfaya then during this period then?

The French 155s were GPF guns.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: Operation Crusader - the German outposts at Halfaya and

Post by Oasis » 01 May 2011 17:33

JBond wrote:Oasis

I don't think Bach would have been at Lower Sollum? Who was at Halfaya then during this period then?

The French 155s were GPF guns.
I specify:
on 23 december I/104. fusiliers is at Halfaya, 10. Co. Oasen is in Lower Sollum, both under Bach command.
on 11 january 6. South African Bde takes a part of Lower Sollum still defended by 70 germans until 13 jan at 9 am when is occupied by Southafricans.

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Re: Operation Crusader - the German outposts at Halfaya and

Post by Oasis » 01 May 2011 17:49

halfaya wrote:Could anyone provide me the OoB of both these garrisons (Bach at Halfaya and Schmitt at Bardia) and their fate ??
I think they surrendered to the British in the second half of December 1941.
Thanks,
Following my sources:
Oriental front (Maj. Gen. Schmidt):
- Bardia (Col. C. Pierucci): 2 btns Savona (II/15 and II/16), one btn Bologna (III/40), 4th sqdn arm.cars Genova Cavalleria, XXVIII. GAF, two defense batteries of Regia Marina 4,7", 2 german btns (-), HQ of 2nd Regt. Articelere, 12th art. regt. of Savona
- Halfaya (Maj. W. Bach): I/104 mot., 10th Co. "Oasen", 2. Regt. Celere Artillery (italian Articelere: III/2 75/27, 3rd batt/I 100/17), one Gruppo di Formazione of 2nd Articelere with 105/28, one 20/mm battery, one battery 155/mm (french), 3 guns Flak 88/mm, all under 2nd Articelere.
- Savona sector - Sollum, Faltenbacher and Cirener - (Gen. F. De Giorgis): HQ of Savona, I/15 and III/15 artill., II/2nd Articelere, HQ CCC. btn zbV "Oasen" with 2., 6., 10. Co., Flak, some other various elements.
It results 10th Oasen was split between Halfaya and Lower Sollum where they counted on the fire of artill. from III/2nd Articelere.

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Re: Operation Crusader - the German outposts at Halfaya and

Post by Urmel » 01 May 2011 20:26

That makes sense. But Oasenkompanie 10 was not part of Bach's unit, even though at this point it may have been subordinated to him.

I take it your source is Montanari?
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: Operation Crusader - the German outposts at Halfaya and

Post by dor1941 » 02 May 2011 12:02

JBond wrote: I take it your source is Montanari?
Oasis must be citing additional sources other than Montanari.

A map in Montanari (p. 539, Schizzo n. 59) depicting the situation on the eve of Crusader (Nov 17,'41) shows the Faltenbacher strongpoint (with 6. Oase-Kp.) was immediately adjacent to the Halfaya defenses (Major Bach) and a 'command line' clearly indicates that Faltenbacher was originally subordinate to Artur Schmitt's "Gruppe Ost". This was in the East Sector of the frontier defenses and consequently not part of Divisione Savona (the West Sector).
I believe Oasis may be describing the situation in Jan 1942 before Bardia and Halfaya surrendered, since he pointedly omits the two battalions of Savona's 16º reggimento fanteria and 12. Oase-Kp. which had been lost when Frongia and Sidi Omar were overrun by 7th Indian Brigade on Nov 22. If so, he must have overlooked 13. Oase-Kp. (in Cova) which also should have survived until Jan '42.

Also I think its been well established that IV gruppo squadroni Genova Cavalleria was a machine-gun battalion, not an armoured car unit.

David R

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Re: Operation Crusader - the German outposts at Halfaya and

Post by David W » 02 May 2011 23:35

Who, what or where is "Frongia" ?

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Re: Operation Crusader - the German outposts at Halfaya and

Post by dor1941 » 03 May 2011 00:39

David W wrote:Who, what or where is "Frongia" ?
I can't find any such word in Italian-perhaps a personal or place name?

I know the Germans named the "Cirener" strongpoint after one of their honored war dead.

David R

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David W
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Re: Operation Crusader - the German outposts at Halfaya and

Post by David W » 03 May 2011 00:52

I seem to remember seeing the name "Frongia" associated with some 105/28 guns attached to Savona, but not understanding the relevance. Then I saw you quote it again above....

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Re: Operation Crusader - the German outposts at Halfaya and

Post by dor1941 » 03 May 2011 01:11

Another one of the capisaldi (strongpoints) of the settore della Divisione Savona was named "D'Avanzo", I think also a personal name.

Where is Oasis (Toni) when we need him? :)

David R

p.s. I'm assuming you already knew that strongpoint "Frongia" was the one overrun by 1st Bn Royal Sussex and 42nd Royal Tanks on Nov 22, 1941. There were no 105/28 guns there at the time.

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Re: Operation Crusader - the German outposts at Halfaya and

Post by Oasis » 03 May 2011 17:36

dor1941 wrote:Another one of the capisaldi (strongpoints) of the settore della Divisione Savona was named "D'Avanzo", I think also a personal name.

Where is Oasis (Toni) when we need him? :)

David R
Just having a little siesta..... :D

so... is correct Genova Cavalleria MG an not arm/cars !!! my error :oops:

Frongia, Cova and D'Avanzo are italian surnames: col. D'Avanzo was the commander of IX btn carri "L" attached to 1st Libica Div., fallen at Sidi Omar on 16 june 1940 with half of his tanks; about the others I had some infos but at moment cannot locate them...

my other sources:
Marciani 1955: Il Reggimento Celere "Emanuele Filiberto Testa di Ferro"
Iacopi 1986: Il Reggimento Artiglieria a Cavallo e il 2° Celere
Caccia Dominioni 1966: El Alamein 1933-1962
Massignani-Greene 2004: Rommel in Africa Settentrionale 1940-1942

Toni

PS: with regard to Frongia strongpoint have a look to (curious)
http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/LotD ... ID=1360139

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Re: Operation Crusader - the German outposts at Halfaya and

Post by Oasis » 03 May 2011 17:44

always about Savona sector from Montanari...
1941.11.23 settore Savona.jpg
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