Operation Crusader - the German outposts at Halfaya and Bar

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dor1941
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Re: Operation Crusader - the German outposts at Halfaya and

Post by dor1941 » 04 May 2011 14:56

Oasis wrote: so... is correct Genova Cavalleria MG an not arm/cars !!! my error
Montanari identifies this unit as "IV gruppo squadroni mtr. Genova Cavalleria" in the OOB for April 1,1941 in Allegato 2, p. 782, in Tripoli. The "VI gruppo squadroni mtr. Lancieri di Aosta" is also mentioned as mitraglieri-a machine-gun unit-in the same OOB. Dili stated in a post in the Comando Supremo Forum that both of these gruppi squadroni mitraglieri were also present in Tripoli on 10/6/40, but I don't know his source.

The Sidi Rezegh Battles 1941 (p. 479) cites a German document of Panzergruppe Afrika which stated there were 24 Italian armoured cars present on Nov 18,1941 (for Crusader). I believe these were mostly if not entirely with RECAM, and that those same two gruppi-Genova Cavalleria then in Bardia, and Lancieri di Aosta attached to Divisione Pavia-were still purely machine-gun units.

Thanks for the information regarding the names of Savona's capisaldi.

David R

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Re: Operation Crusader - the German outposts at Halfaya and

Post by Dili » 05 May 2011 11:09

My source for Mitragliere Cavalry(but on foot) units is this: http://xoomer.virgilio.it/ramius/Milita ... _1940.html

This are the units i have with Autoblindo AB40/41 in Africa in 1941:

III Gruppo Corazzato "Nizza" called also
132° Btg. Autoblindo e CXXXII Battaglione
esplorante corazzato for Ariete Div.

VIII Btg. Bersaglieri(Autoblindo) called also
133° Btg. Autoblindo e CXXXIII Battaglione
esplorante corazzato for
Trieste Mot.Div.

P.A.I. 4 compagnie in Libia ed una a Tripoli

Source: http://www.modellismopiu.net/m+contenut ... 1_e_43.pdf

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Re: Operation Crusader - the German outposts at Halfaya and

Post by Urmel » 07 May 2011 09:38

According to Lexikon der Wehrmacht the French 155mm guns were the 2./HKAA532.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: Operation Crusader - the German outposts at Halfaya and

Post by David W » 08 May 2011 00:47

Then the Lexicon is wrong!
There was no H.K.A.A 532. At least not in North Africa.
This is a very common typo, probably for H.K.A.A 523.

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Re: Operation Crusader - the German outposts at Halfaya and

Post by Urmel » 08 May 2011 09:42

Possible. It seemed strange, but I did not have time to check it.

Now, given this however: http://crusaderproject.wordpress.com/20 ... -crusader/, I'd say it is more likely a typo for 533, since 523 had relatively smaller losses. A whole battery would be about 160 men. Also, the loss of the guns would go part of the way to explaining the reequipment with the French M1917 guns.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: Operation Crusader - the German outposts at Halfaya and

Post by dor1941 » 08 May 2011 10:37

Oasis wrote: - Bardia (Col. C. Pierucci): 2 btns Savona (II/15 and II/16), one btn Bologna (III/40), 4th sqdn arm.cars Genova Cavalleria, XXVIII. GAF, two defense batteries of Regia Marina 4,7", 2 german btns (-), HQ of 2nd Regt. Articelere, 12th art. regt. of Savona
The report of the presence of the two German battalions in Bardia during Crusader is incorrect.

This misinformation probably originated from Montanari's comment (A.S., II-Tobruk, p. 536) which included "..due piccoli battaglioni tedeschi di formazione.." as part of the Bardia garrison in the middle of November. Greene and Massignani (p. 130) may have picked up on this and elaborated to claim "..2 understrength battalions of Germans, the 3rd/255th and 3rd/347th..." were in Bardia "at the start of the battle". They might have been near Bardia sometime earlier, but both battalions were organic to Division z.b.V. Afrika and had been deployed against the Tobruk perimeter near the start of Crusader in preparation of Rommel's plan to attack the garrison on Nov 21.
In fact, on that very date (Nov 21) 32nd Army Tank Brigade launched the breakout from Tobruk, and III./IR 255 was right in the path of 4th Royal Tanks (Matildas) and the 2nd Black Watch and was mostly overrun, with its commander Major Meythaler captured (N.Z. OH, p. 93).

This is probably just another example of an error made by Greene and Massignani from misinterpreting and/or citing a secondary source instead of an original document.

David R
Last edited by dor1941 on 08 May 2011 11:26, edited 1 time in total.

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David W
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Re: Operation Crusader - the German outposts at Halfaya and

Post by David W » 08 May 2011 10:57

Now, given this however: http://crusaderproject.wordpress.com/20 ... -crusader/, I'd say it is more likely a typo for 533, since 523 had relatively smaller losses. A whole battery would be about 160 men. Also, the loss of the guns would go part of the way to explaining the reequipment with the French M1917 guns.
Agreed re the typo.

Regarding the French guns. Am I correct in assuming that you think that originally HKAA 533 had the 155mm Gpft 418/9 (f) L/37. And that losses were replaced with the 15.5cm sF/H 414(f) C mle 1917??

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Re: Operation Crusader - the German outposts at Halfaya and

Post by Urmel » 08 May 2011 12:44

dor1941 wrote:
Oasis wrote: - Bardia (Col. C. Pierucci): 2 btns Savona (II/15 and II/16), one btn Bologna (III/40), 4th sqdn arm.cars Genova Cavalleria, XXVIII. GAF, two defense batteries of Regia Marina 4,7", 2 german btns (-), HQ of 2nd Regt. Articelere, 12th art. regt. of Savona
The report of the presence of the two German battalions in Bardia during Crusader is incorrect.

This misinformation probably originated from Montanari's comment (A.S., II-Tobruk, p. 536) which included "..due piccoli battaglioni tedeschi di formazione.." as part of the Bardia garrison in the middle of November. Greene and Massignani (p. 130) may have picked up on this and elaborated to claim "..2 understrength battalions of Germans, the 3rd/255th and 3rd/347th..." were in Bardia "at the start of the battle". They might have been near Bardia sometime earlier, but both battalions were organic to Division z.b.V. Afrika and had been deployed against the Tobruk perimeter near the start of Crusader in preparation of Rommel's plan to attack the garrison on Nov 21.
In fact, on that very date (Nov 21) 32nd Army Tank Brigade launched the breakout from Tobruk, and III./IR 255 was right in the path of 4th Royal Tanks (Matildas) and the 2nd Black Watch and was mostly overrun, with its commander Major Meythaler captured (N.Z. OH, p. 93).

This is probably just another example of an error made by Greene and Massignani from misinterpreting and/or citing a secondary source instead of an original document.

David R
I believe there was an armoured pioneer battalion in Bardia, which was partially shipped out later.

Apart from that there were of course thousands of German troops from rear installations, almost all of whom ended up trudging into captivity.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: Operation Crusader - the German outposts at Halfaya and

Post by Urmel » 08 May 2011 12:44

David W wrote:
Now, given this however: http://crusaderproject.wordpress.com/20 ... -crusader/, I'd say it is more likely a typo for 533, since 523 had relatively smaller losses. A whole battery would be about 160 men. Also, the loss of the guns would go part of the way to explaining the reequipment with the French M1917 guns.
Agreed re the typo.

Regarding the French guns. Am I correct in assuming that you think that originally HKAA 533 had the 155mm Gpft 418/9 (f) L/37. And that losses were replaced with the 15.5cm sF/H 414(f) C mle 1917??
Yes.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: Operation Crusader - the German outposts at Halfaya and

Post by David W » 08 May 2011 13:12

JBond.

Sorry if I am backtracking here, but how many replacement 15.5cm sF/H 414(f) C mle 1917 did you think that there were?

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Re: Operation Crusader - the German outposts at Halfaya and

Post by Urmel » 08 May 2011 13:34

20
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: Operation Crusader - the German outposts at Halfaya and

Post by David W » 08 May 2011 13:55

So more than enough to replace 100% loss.

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Re: Operation Crusader - the German outposts at Halfaya and

Post by Urmel » 09 May 2011 11:57

Note however that that was not what they were procured for.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: Operation Crusader - the German outposts at Halfaya and

Post by David W » 09 May 2011 23:48

Note however that that was not what they were procured for.
Go on....... :)

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Re: Operation Crusader - the German outposts at Halfaya and

Post by Urmel » 16 May 2011 15:28

I believe they were initially procured to primarily provide a heavy battalion to the artillery of Div.z.b.V. Afrika, with some additional guns for a unit under Arko 104.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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