Operation Crusader - the German outposts at Halfaya and Bar

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David W
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Re: Operation Crusader - the German outposts at Halfaya and

Post by David W » 16 May 2011 23:46

And do we know where they actually went?
Which units received how many & when?

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Urmel
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Re: Operation Crusader - the German outposts at Halfaya and

Post by Urmel » 17 May 2011 09:29

Well some seem to have gone to 90th Light, since they were stripped off it in Agedabia.

Some went to HKAA 533, but those could have been the same guns as above.

At least four were lost near Tmimi, and Commonwealth intel indicated those were with Trento (I have my doubts that is correct though).

http://crusaderproject.wordpress.com/20 ... revisited/
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Operation Crusader - the German outposts at Halfaya and

Post by Sid Guttridge » 17 May 2011 10:02

Despite the German emphasis of the thread title, it would appear that the great majority of the troops holding out were Italian, not German.

Credit where credit is due.

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Urmel
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Re: Operation Crusader - the German outposts at Halfaya and

Post by Urmel » 17 May 2011 10:23

Quite. The ratio was not far off 2:1 for Italians to Germans.

http://crusaderproject.wordpress.com/20 ... he-battle/

Sector East (which included Halfaya, Sollum, Lower Sollum, and the Cirener strongpoint, where under command of Major-General Fedele de Giorgis of the Savona Division after the reorganisation in December.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

dor1941
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Re: Operation Crusader - the German outposts at Halfaya and

Post by dor1941 » 11 Jun 2011 19:46

Oasis wrote: PS: with regard to Frongia strongpoint have a look to (curious)
http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/LotD ... ID=1360139
This is an interesting map/diagram which details the heavy weapons pits and artillery emplacements of the caposaldo "Frongia" which was held by the III battaglione 16º reggimento fanteria (reinforced) of D.f. Savona in Operation Crusader in November 1941. A comparison with Schizzo n. 61 in Montanari (A.S.,II-Tobruk) clearly identifies it as one of the two Italian strongpoints overrun by 7th Indian Brigade and 42nd RTR mostly on Nov 22nd.
I copied the document to pictures with Windows 7 and by enlarging could identify those weapons in each of the company positions-their arrangement can help to explain on a tactical level why the 1st Bn Royal Sussex led by the Matildas were able to break into "Frongia" and overrun each company strongpoint in turn.

The narrative provided at the Christie's auction dates the diagram to Ottobre 1941 and relates it to a visit by Rommel to the headquarters of the C.A.M.-its commander was gen. Gastone Gambara, who was also/simultaneously the Capo di Stato Maggiore (Chief of Staff) of the Comando Superiore (gen. Ettore Bastico) and was certainly likely to have had possession of such a document. However, the mention of Montgomery in the narrative is erroneous-he didn't arrive in the desert to take command of Eighth Army until August 1942.

Thanks to Oasis for finding and posting this information.

David R

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Urmel
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Re: Operation Crusader - the German outposts at Halfaya and

Post by Urmel » 17 Jun 2011 11:39

This maybe of interest: http://wp.me/phMWl-kf
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

valentine III
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Re: Operation Crusader - the German outposts at Halfaya and Bar

Post by valentine III » 17 Dec 2020 13:48

By the way: Frongia was the name of the commander of Italian 24 Grupo Artilleria. A unit equipped with 105/16 II/24, and 105/28 I/24 and if existed III/24.

A battery of II/24 with 105/16's was at halfaya during operation Brevity. The commander of the artillery grup, Frongia seems to have been killed not long afterwards and possibly his death was remmembered by giving his name to a position. like Cova was.

The 105/28 groups of the 24 artillery group were used to provide support to different italian units Pavia, Ariete and Trieste at least to the battles of 1st Alamein when they seem to disapear from the orbats, possibly destroyed during CW counterattacks.

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Re: Operation Crusader - the German outposts at Halfaya and Bar

Post by valentine III » 17 Dec 2020 13:50

Sorry for my english. Sources Montanari, Jentz and Rommels risposte.

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