Tobruk

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Urmel
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Re: Tobruk

Post by Urmel » 20 Oct 2012 19:23

Presume Derna.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: Tobruk

Post by phylo_roadking » 20 Oct 2012 19:43

Well, in that case - Heraklion to Derna and back was within the range of the Ju52 round-trip on its own tanks. It's only 227 miles one way...

As for 5 aircraft carrying 14 tons...that's only 2.8 tons each.

But I note that it doesn't say how many round trips they made ;) It's only a couple of hours each way, they could easily have made two round trips in a day. Or does the ULTRA digest specify?
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Re: Tobruk

Post by Urmel » 20 Oct 2012 20:03

Good point, and it doesn't.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: Tobruk

Post by Urmel » 20 Oct 2012 20:09

Reading on, it does actually. That was the number of planes. A later message states that 5 Ju 52 in two trips each will deliver 17 tons B4.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: Tobruk

Post by phylo_roadking » 20 Oct 2012 20:30

A later message states that 5 Ju 52 in two trips each will deliver 17 tons B4.
That's 1.7 metric tons each aircraft each time. Definitely doable.

Actually - underloaded at first glance...but the intercepts are detailing the weight of fuel delivered; that allows for the extra weight of the steel drums :lol:
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Re: Tobruk

Post by Andrew Arthy » 21 Oct 2012 02:02

Hi,

A couple of examples of the army and Luftwaffe competing for aviation fuel:

- On 24 March 1942 the Fliegerführer Afrika complained that the Panzerarmee was stealing aviation fuel for its vehicles
- In early September 1942 the Luftwaffe lacked aviation fuel partly because Kesselring had to give some to the army for its vehicles, a practice that he believed wasted valuable aviation fuel

Sources: ULTRA; Kesselring memoirs

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Re: Tobruk

Post by phylo_roadking » 21 Oct 2012 02:18

Andrew - I don't suppose Smiling Albert's memoir happens to mention which grade of aviation fuel???
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Re: Tobruk

Post by Andrew Arthy » 21 Oct 2012 12:20

Hi,

Unfortunately he doesn't. However, in the summer of 1942 aircraft operated by units of the Fliegerführer Afrika used almost exclusively B4 fuel (Ju 87 D, Bf 109 F-4).

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Re: Tobruk

Post by Urmel » 21 Oct 2012 15:51

Through all the ULTRA info I have seen for winter 41, B4 is by far outvoluming C3. I am not sure what the Ju 52 flew on, but I guess C3 was mostly in use for 'hack' planes, maybe the Caumonts, older Me 110 of 2./H14, older He111 of Stabstaffel, maybe the Stoerche of the Desert Rescue Squadron? There was a good variety of plane and engine types around, but the majority of the combat planes were Ju 87D, Me 109F-4, and Ju 88A4, all of which I understand flew on B4.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: Tobruk

Post by phylo_roadking » 21 Oct 2012 15:54

What's the octane rating of C3?
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Re: Tobruk

Post by Urmel » 21 Oct 2012 16:16

The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Occams Razor >>>|& money

Post by waldzee » 21 Oct 2012 16:57

phylo_roadking wrote:
but do not agree with the conclusions.
I'm sure you do. However - those conclusions that HAVE been confirmed by Tom's exhausting trawl through Kew do stand.
I suspect slipping distributors, faulty points, etc- or carbon hot spots on poorly finished edges. Passed off as gas troubles
Which were/are strangely missing from ANY record or period comment at all on the K5 "issue". From anywhere by anyone.
"However, in general, detonation is a very rare event and is usually caused by fuel or ignition problems."
....in aircraft engines - which were a slightly different beast to the sort of engines fitted in softskin lorries! :lol:
Just an example, on 12-2-42 5 Ju 52 brought 14 tons B4 to North Africa from Crete, according to ULTRA. My guess is that this was net, and it shows (if the report is correct) that the Ju 52 could either be overloaded, or they siphoned fuel out of the aircraft tanks, since for a mission loaded from and return empty to Crete they didn't need full tanks, I would guess?
Where in North Africa???
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
without going through that ong thrread on a side issue, the 'excessive wear' due to pre detonation 'may' have been caused by a fuel component - but there seems to have been some fuzziness around the issue.
Phyto, a 'bad cut' on valve lap can cause detonation under load. If anything ,higher octane fuel is 'more resistant' to pre detonation -
did you read the Pelican's collumns?

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Re: Tobruk

Post by phylo_roadking » 21 Oct 2012 17:44

did you read the Pelican's collumns?
Yes, hence "....in aircraft engines - which were a slightly different beast to the sort of engines fitted in softskin lorries!"
without going through that ong thrread on a side issue, the 'excessive wear' due to pre detonation 'may' have been caused by a fuel component - but there seems to have been some fuzziness around the issue.
Fuzziness BEFORE Tom's exhaustive (sic) work on the lorry issue - but not now.

However -
the 'excessive wear' due to pre detonation 'may' have been caused by a fuel component
...this appears to be a distinct possibility in the P-38 case.
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apples & oranges

Post by waldzee » 22 Oct 2012 03:30

phylo_roadking wrote:
did you read the Pelican's collumns?
Yes, hence "....in aircraft engines - which were a slightly different beast to the sort of engines fitted in softskin lorries!"
without going through that ong thrread on a side issue, the 'excessive wear' due to pre detonation 'may' have been caused by a fuel component - but there seems to have been some fuzziness around the issue.
Fuzziness BEFORE Tom's exhaustive (sic) work on the lorry issue - but not now.

However -
the 'excessive wear' due to pre detonation 'may' have been caused by a fuel component
...this appears to be a distinct possibility in the P-38 case.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
the p-38 is an entirely separate discussion.
Ok= what components inbthe higher octane fuel,do YOU feel, inthe fuel, caused 'rapid engine piston wear'?

According to the War Office D.M.E. progress report for period ending 3.12.44, "new and interchangeable piston rings of improved material and design should be incorporated into production now, and fitted to the 3,000 vehicles at present frozen in V.R.Ds".

doesn't sound likw an octane boost in the fuel problem to me....

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Re: Tobruk

Post by phylo_roadking » 22 Oct 2012 17:54

According to the War Office D.M.E. progress report for period ending 3.12.44, "new and interchangeable piston rings of improved material and design should be incorporated into production now, and fitted to the 3,000 vehicles at present frozen in V.R.Ds".

doesn't sound likw an octane boost in the fuel problem to me....
Did you miss the "however" in -
However -
the 'excessive wear' due to pre detonation 'may' have been caused by a fuel component
...this appears to be a distinct possibility in the P-38 case.
..as in - NOT in the case of the Austins.
Ok= what components inbthe higher octane fuel,do YOU feel, inthe fuel, caused 'rapid engine piston wear'?
Regarding the P38 issue, see the P38 thread; IIRC it's discussed there.
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Lord, please keep Kevin Bacon alive...

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