Crusader OOB

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David W
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Re: Crusader OOB

Post by David W » 05 Nov 2011 00:36

But does it confirm their actual arrival, or just their scheduled departure?

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Urmel
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Re: Crusader OOB

Post by Urmel » 06 Nov 2011 00:54

Neither. It is just a numbered list, with 1) being top priority for despatch. In some cases information is given about which ship they ended up on, but that is an exception.

What it tells me however is which units were missing in North Africa at the end of October 1941.

Example:

1) Regimental Staff Rifle Regt. 155 with signals platoon and staff company
2) Remainder HKAA 523
[...]
29b) 4./HKAA 149 (handwritten note: Wachtfels 15 November)*
[...]
73) s. Inf.Gesch. Komp. (mot) 707

etc.

* Wachtfels did not arrive on 15 November, so my guess is the battery was loaded onto Wachtfels on that day.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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David W
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Re: Crusader OOB

Post by David W » 06 Nov 2011 01:18

Now I understand. Thank you.

dor1941
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Re: Crusader OOB

Post by dor1941 » 11 Nov 2011 02:39

The South African OH devotes most of a chapter on the advance of Force E from Giarabub to Gialo (Jalo), perhaps due to the extensive participation of S.A. armoured cars. A summary of that command, primarily from p. 472:

Force E: Brigadier D. W. Reid
Headquarters 29th Indian Infantry Brigade (part)
7th S.A. Reconnaissance Battalion (3 companies Marmon-Herrington armoured cars) (less 1 company)
4th Battery 2nd S.A. Field Regiment (8 25-pdrs in two troops)
C Battery 73rd Anti-Tank Regiment R.A. (4 towed 18-pdr and 12 2-pdr portee) (less 1 troop)
6th Battery 2nd Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment R.A. (40mm Bofors) (less X Troop)
3rd Battalion 2nd Punjab Regiment (less carrier platoon)
B Squadron 6th S.A. Armoured Car Regiment (M-H armoured cars)
Oasis Group (less Force E)
(remaining at Giarabub was the rest of Reid's brigade group, including anti-tank and anti-aircraft artillery, two battalions of dummy tanks, and)
2nd S.A. Field Regiment (less 4th Battery)
detachment 6th S.A. Armoured Car Regiment
1st Battalion The Worcestershire Regiment
6th Battalion 13th Frontier Force Rifles

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Urmel
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Re: Crusader OOB

Post by Urmel » 11 Nov 2011 10:27

With the exception of the 18-pdrs, I can confirm that for Force E. On those, I am simply uncertain. I haven't seen any reference to them in the extensive documentation I have, and given the mission I would not be surprised to find them left behind at Giarabub or LG125. My guess is that is the troop left behind. Oasis Force is not complete though.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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David W
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Re: Crusader OOB

Post by David W » 13 Nov 2011 12:34

JBond.
I have seen the 18pdrs mentioned before, but I don't know where.

dor1941
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Re: Crusader OOB

Post by dor1941 » 08 Dec 2011 07:44

At least two published sources mention totals for German anti-tank guns in Crusader.

The S.A. Official History (in Chapter 3, "Tank and Anti-tank: November 1941", p. 53) states the distribution of those guns in D.A.K. as follows:
15. Panzer-Division
Pz. Jäg. Abt. 33: 18x 5cm Pak 38
15. Schtz. Brig.: 15x 5cm Pak 38, 9x 3.7cm Pak 36
Aufkl. Abt. 33: 2x 5cm Pak 38, 3x 3.7cm Pak 36
total: 35x 5cm and 12x 3.7cm
21. Panzer-Division
(for Pz. Jäg. Abt. 39, Schtz. Rgt. 104 and Aufkl. Abt. 3): 28x 5cm Pak 38 and 9x 3.7cm Pak 36
D.A.K. total: 63x 5cm and 21x 3.7cm

Greene and Massignani (Rommel's North Africa Campaign, p. 95) says the German anti-tank guns on Nov 18 (presumably for the Panzergruppe as a whole) were 101x 50mm, 2x 75mm and 33x 37mm. This would include Division z.b.V. Afrika (reportedly very short of heavy weapons, those having been left in Italy) and exclude Pz. Jäg. Abt. 605 with its 27x 4.7cm Pak on Pzkw I chassis.
I understood the Italians also possessed some 3.7cm Pak 36, but assume these were not included in G & M's total.

Neither book states the precise documentary sources for any of this data. Can anyone provide support for these numbers?

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David W
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Re: Crusader OOB

Post by David W » 08 Dec 2011 09:57

David.

The only "alarm bells" ringing in your last post are the quoted 27x 4.7cm Pak on Pzkw I chassis in Pz. Jäg. Abt. 605.
As I doubt that they would still have been at full strength after 8 months in North Africa.

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Re: Crusader OOB

Post by Urmel » 08 Dec 2011 11:25

Actually, my understanding is that they were full up. They may also have received replacement vehiclesm I have some of these shipped out in jan 42 even.

My numbers for the guns are different. In any case, the numbers above almost certainly ignore recent shipments of almost 100 guns, 1/3rd Pak 38, 2/3rd 37mm, which were in Benghazi and Derna, respectively.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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David W
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Re: Crusader OOB

Post by David W » 08 Dec 2011 11:46

JBond.
I can only see 3x 4.7cm Pak on Pzkw I chassis replacements arriving in 1941 in total.
Do you have anymore? Or were casualties really that light up until then?

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Urmel
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Re: Crusader OOB

Post by Urmel » 08 Dec 2011 12:33

There is a report dated 16 Nov 41 which confirms 27 guns in 605.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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David W
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Re: Crusader OOB

Post by David W » 08 Dec 2011 15:03

Looks like light casualties then.
Thanks.

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Urmel
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Re: Crusader OOB

Post by Urmel » 08 Dec 2011 16:32

I'd say so. Even if they had suffered losses, most of those would haave been recoverable, and repairable, given time.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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David W
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Re: Crusader OOB

Post by David W » 08 Dec 2011 16:42

Yes, the German Engineers & mechanics did a great job.

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Urmel
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Re: Crusader OOB

Post by Urmel » 09 Dec 2011 23:46

JBond wrote:Actually, my understanding is that they were full up. They may also have received replacement vehiclesm I have some of these shipped out in jan 42 even.

My numbers for the guns are different. In any case, the numbers above almost certainly ignore recent shipments of almost 100 guns, 1/3rd Pak 38, 2/3rd 37mm, which were in Benghazi and Derna, respectively.
On checking, I get up to 46 Pak 38 in supply coming in, and at least 80 3.7cm Pak, all within days of Crusader starting. Add to that a dozen or so sPzB41, which was a thoroughly nasty piece if you sat in a Crusader or Honey.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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