Crusader OOB

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SASH155
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Re: Crusader OOB

Post by SASH155 » 16 Aug 2012 21:54

OK, I know I have asked this elsewhere on this forum, but at any time between 02/41 and 05/43 were any of the German Schwere Artillerie Abteillungen, Batterien or Kusten Artillerie Abteilungen in North Africa in either Panzer Armee Afrika or in the 5th Panzer Armee under von Arnim, equipped with either the 15cm K-18 gun or the 15cm K-39 gun? My hunch from all that I have read elsewhere is that in fact no, these weapons were never used in North Africa, but perhaps someone here could clarify this. The 17cm K-18 in Mörser Lafette seems to be the only German heavy counter battery gun (not including the 21cm Mörser 18) which figures in the German ORBATs in NA.

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Urmel
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Re: Crusader OOB

Post by Urmel » 02 Jan 2013 20:05

I have never come across these guns in NA.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

Tom from Cornwall
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Re: Crusader OOB

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 15 Feb 2013 21:09

Hi,

Did anyone ever confirm the RA AA units that were deployed during Op Crusader. I know 1 LAA Regt were with 7 Support Group but see in the NA catalogue that the WD ends in October 1941 which is very inconsiderate :roll:

I'm hoping to get to Kew next week and had planned to look up at least one AA war diary - has anyone got a regiment or battery they are particularly curious about?

Regards

Tom

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Re: Crusader OOB

Post by Urmel » 15 Feb 2013 21:48

15 LAA Rgt. were in Tobruk during the siege.

I'd be interested in Jan 42 for 68 HAA and 122 Bty LAA for Nov 41 to Jan/Feb 42:)

Wish I still had time to go to Kew!
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: Crusader OOB

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 16 Feb 2013 17:57

Hi,

A possible amendment to the details of the Tobruk garrison on post #5 comes from the war diary of "M" bty, 3 RHA for Sept:
21 September 1941
Main body left Tobruk at 2335 hrs aboard HMS KINGSTON with “J” Bty and the 3rd Australian A/T Regt. The relieving Bty 433 [?] of the 149 Anti-Tank Regt had arrived the previous evening and took over the six BOFORS guns during the day.
Which suggests that 149 AT Regt was not equipped only with 2 pdrs?

Regards

Tom

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Re: Crusader OOB

Post by dor1941 » 20 Feb 2013 13:45

Tom from Cornwall wrote:Hi,

Did anyone ever confirm the RA AA units that were deployed during Op Crusader. I know 1 LAA Regt were with 7 Support Group but see in the NA catalogue that the WD ends in October 1941 which is very inconsiderate :roll:

I'm hoping to get to Kew next week and had planned to look up at least one AA war diary - has anyone got a regiment or battery they are particularly curious about?

Regards

Tom
The Sidi Rezegh Battles 1941 (the S.A. Official History) notes the 12th Anti-Aircraft Brigade was "under command" of 22nd Guards Brigade during the initial phase of Operation Crusader, apparently to protect the Field Maintainance Centres of 30th and 13th Corps. I would be particularly interested in the heavy and light anti-aircraft units of this formation in Crusader. Agar-Hamilton and Turner also mention "one heavy anti-aircraft regiment and one heavy battery, and 3 light anti-aircraft batteries..." as part of 13th Corps Troops in Crusader, but do not identify them.
Also I noted from several sources that batteries of 2nd Light Anti-Aircraft Regt., R.A.-6th, 122nd and 274th-took part in Crusader, but saw no mention of the regimental H.Q. in published works.
Any information on these would be helpful. Thanks in advance.

David R
Last edited by dor1941 on 20 Feb 2013 14:48, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Crusader OOB

Post by dor1941 » 20 Feb 2013 13:52

Urmel wrote:15 LAA Rgt. were in Tobruk during the siege.
I'm not convinced this is correct. F. Harrison (in Tobruk) goes into considerable detail describing the withdrawal of the Australian troops and their replacement by 70th British Division and the Polish Carpathian Brigade (SBSK), and does not mention the presence of 15 LAA Regt. as any part of the Tobruk Garrison in 1941.
I'd be interested in Jan 42 for 68 HAA and 122 Bty LAA for Nov 41 to Jan/Feb 42:)
I would second that request.

David R

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Re: Crusader OOB

Post by dor1941 » 20 Feb 2013 14:15

Tom from Cornwall wrote:Hi,

A possible amendment to the details of the Tobruk garrison on post #5 comes from the war diary of "M" bty, 3 RHA for Sept:
21 September 1941
Main body left Tobruk at 2335 hrs aboard HMS KINGSTON with “J” Bty and the 3rd Australian A/T Regt. The relieving Bty 433 [?] of the 149 Anti-Tank Regt had arrived the previous evening and took over the six BOFORS guns during the day.
Which suggests that 149 AT Regt was not equipped only with 2 pdrs?

Regards

Tom
I think this information in the battery WD was no longer acccurate by the time of Crusader in November.

The WO 169/949 HQ RA GHQ ME mentioned in my post of 05 Aug 2012 (in the Topic "18-pdr anti-tank guns 1941...") shows the guns of 149th Anti-Tank Regt. R.A. as forty 2-pdrs and nine 18-pdrs on November 4th. It also lists 26 37mm Bofors atk guns and 42 captured Italian 47/32 guns in the Tobruk Garrison without identifying any units equipped with them, which I construed as an indication that all those guns were deployed in the perimeter posts on "the Red Line".

David R
Last edited by dor1941 on 20 Feb 2013 14:43, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Crusader OOB

Post by Urmel » 20 Feb 2013 14:17

Sorry, 14 LAA Rgt. Thanks for the correction.

David has a whole list in the RA Section on WW2talk Tom. That's the best start to figure out who was there.

On the ATGs - I wouldn't be surprised if they were at least partially manned and maintained by 149 AT Rgt. The infantry wouldn't have had the tools and experience I feel.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: Crusader OOB

Post by dor1941 » 20 Feb 2013 14:35

Urmel wrote: On the ATGs - I wouldn't be surprised if they were at least partially manned and maintained by 149 AT Rgt. The infantry wouldn't have had the tools and experience I feel.
You may be right that 149th AT Regt had some influence or level of control over all those 37mm Bofors and 47/32 guns, but I understood that an old WE for Brigade AT companies still existed for the 14th, 16th and 23rd Infantry Brigades in Tobruk, and I'm sure that the SBSK also had its own trained AT gunners.

David R

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Re: Crusader OOB

Post by Urmel » 20 Feb 2013 14:56

Well 70 Division is THE big gap in my WD collection. Always wanted to get it, but no time to go to Kew, with the baby at home.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: Crusader OOB

Post by Freebird » 26 Apr 2013 17:28

jurisnik wrote:
Thanks Toni! After updating, Brescia now looks like this:

-- Divisione Fanteria 27. "Brescia" (mot.)
-- -- Reggimento Fanteria 19. (AS42)
-- -- -- Battaglione Fanteria 1./19. – 4 x Compagnie Fucilieri
-- -- -- Battaglione Fanteria 2./19. – 4 x Compagnie Fucilieri
-- -- Reggimento Fanteria 20. (AS42)
-- -- -- Battaglione Fanteria 1./20. – 4 x Compagnie Fucilieri
-- -- -- Battaglione Fanteria 2./20. – 4 x Compagnie Fucilieri
-- -- -- Battaglione Fanteria 3./20. – 4 x Compagnie Fucilieri
-- -- Reggimento Articelere 1. (motorized)
-- -- -- Battaglione Artiglieria 1./1C. – 12 x 100/17mm How.
-- -- -- Battaglione Artiglieria 2./1C. (-) – 8 x 75/27mm Gun
-- -- -- Battaglione Artiglieria 3./1C. (-) – 8 x 75/27mm Gun
-- -- -- Battaglione Controaerea 18. – 8 x 88mm Flak
-- -- -- Battaglione Controaerea 5. – 16 x 20/65mm AA
-- -- -- Compagnie Controaerea 7. - 8 x 20/65mm AA
-- -- -- Compagnie Controaerea 8. - 8 x 20/65mm AA
-- -- Division Troops
-- -- -- Battaglione Genio Misto 27.
-- -- -- Battaglione Mitraglieri 27.


One question though: I don't see Btgl Misto Genio in your OOB. Is that info correct?
If I am following this right, Pavia & Bologna had antitank companies attached, but Brescia & Savona did not have any 47/32 companies? (Other than the Corps assets)

Is this correct?

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Re: Crusader OOB

Post by dor1941 » 27 Apr 2013 14:39

Freebird wrote: If I am following this right, Pavia & Bologna had antitank companies attached, but Brescia & Savona did not have any 47/32 companies? (Other than the Corps assets)

Is this correct?
In terms of the divisional structures (establishment-"Tabelle Organische") during Crusader, I would reiterate the following:

Brescia and Savona were divisioni fanteria tipo A.S. and had one divisional anti-tank company of eight 47/32 pieces each.

Pavia and Bologna were divisioni motorizzata A.S. and had one company of 47/32 in each of the two regimental heavy weapons battalions and one in the divisional heavy weapons battalion (styled "battaglione armi di accompagnamento") for a divisional total of three "compagnie".

Trieste and Trento were the only two prewar fully-motorised divisions in the Regio Esercito (Royal Army), and at the time of Crusader each had a Bersaglieri regiment in addition to the establishment of Pavia and Bologna shown above. Then it gets complicated, because we know that the two Bersaglieri regiments were not identical. The Italian OH (Mario Montanari) shows 9º reggimento bersaglieri (Trieste) had four battalions in Crusader, and may have had two anti-tank companies. 7º reggimento bersaglieri (Trento) appears to have had two rifle battalions (battaglioni autoportati) [at Ras el Medaur, on the Tobruk perimeter] and one heavy weapons battalion [at Gialo, over 200 miles away], and probably had one 47/32 company in each battalion.

Then there was the 8º reggimento bersaglieri in Ariete (in addition to its tanks), so more speculation is necessary.

Note all of this is "establishment" and therefore speculation. In addition, some Italian divisions retained some German 3.7cm Pak 36 in their artillery inventories.

So, be prepared to administer your budding headache with a fresh prescription of Tylenol, Valium, Cialis (oops, skip that one), Darvocet or butalbital with codeine.

David R

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Re: Crusader OOB

Post by Urmel » 27 Apr 2013 16:11

Gialo is actually 400km from Tobruk, and I have my doubts that this was a heavy weapons battalion.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: Crusader OOB

Post by Urmel » 20 Jan 2014 08:10

dor1941 wrote:Were any of the batteries equipped with the 3.7cm Flak during Crusader?
This was not answered I believe? Res-Fla Abteilung 114 in Benghazi sported 3.7cm guns in at least one battery.

http://www.ww2.dk/ground/flak/abt/gem114.html
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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