How many 7.62 cm PaK 36 were sent to North Africa?

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Dili
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Re: How many 7.62 cm PaK 36 were sent to North Africa?

#46

Post by Dili » 27 Feb 2013, 10:34

For Italians only 75's were 75/46 AA towed and 75/18 of Semovente in 1942. I don't think pedestal fixed 76/40 of city naval bases would be included in the list.

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Re: How many 7.62 cm PaK 36 were sent to North Africa?

#47

Post by ColinWright » 27 Feb 2013, 11:31

Urmel wrote:
ColinWright wrote:
Alanmccoubrey wrote:The lower number makes sense when you consider that the Pak 38 could be substituted for the 76.2 Pak 36 in the KStN.
This raises the question of deliveries of PaK 38's...
The French 75mm mle97 could also be substituted.
Mm. Rich (@ http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 6&start=60 ) refers to:

"45 7.5cm Pak
61 7.62cm Pak (r)
34 7.62cm Pak (r) (Sfl.) "


What are those '7.5 cm PAK'? I ran an internet search for various variations on 'PaK 40 El Alamein' etc. -- and there's a conspicuous lack of hits. A few references, but...

I don't see how he could be talking about 7.5 cm versions of the Marder. First off, he's separated out the sfl. 7.62 cm guns, and secondly, there weren't (34+45) 79 Marders at El Alamein. Are these French 75 mm pieces? That's possible, but...

In any case, if anyone has figures for towed PaK 40's and when and how many arrived in North Africa, I'd be grateful to hear them.


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Re: How many 7.62 cm PaK 36 were sent to North Africa?

#48

Post by Urmel » 27 Feb 2013, 11:40

The 75s are probably the French 75 mle1897 (why the 'but'?). The first arrived in North Africa in November 41, I think.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_de_7 ... II_service

I agree with David on the Italian 7,62cm guns. I believe it when I see a picture of one with an Italian crew or unit sign. Rich's info is normally very good, but he'd be the first to admit he's not perfect either. Well maybe...
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

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Re: How many 7.62 cm PaK 36 were sent to North Africa?

#49

Post by Urmel » 27 Feb 2013, 11:48

Dili wrote:For Italians only 75's were 75/46 AA towed and 75/18 of Semovente in 1942. I don't think pedestal fixed 76/40 of city naval bases would be included in the list.
Well there was also the 75/27? I also have the 70th Battery with 75/50 S.K. (3 guns - presumably the Czech 75mm AA gun) mentioned in the 132a Reggimento Artiglieria WD.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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David W
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Re: How many 7.62 cm PaK 36 were sent to North Africa?

#50

Post by David W » 27 Feb 2013, 13:54

I know that it is slightly off topic, but it was raised in this thread. French 75mm mle 1897. I would be VERY interested to know how many were in service with the Germans (or Italians, but I doubt it) in North africa, and to which units.

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Re: How many 7.62 cm PaK 36 were sent to North Africa?

#51

Post by Urmel » 27 Feb 2013, 14:51

Me too.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: How many 7.62 cm PaK 36 were sent to North Africa?

#52

Post by ColinWright » 27 Feb 2013, 20:24

Urmel wrote:The 75s are probably the French 75 mle1897 (why the 'but'?)...
The 'but' is because references to these with the Afrika Korps are even scantier than references to Pak 40's.

One gets a lot of references to modelers' dioramas in both cases; however, with the PaK 40 there was one definite -- if conspicuously isolated --- claim that the Afrika had these pieces at El Alamein.

Try the same thing with the French 75 and it's worse. I drew a blank with the German designation. When I tried the French, I got one claim -- but pretty clearly for the wrong side.

It's a pity, as I'd bet Rich's '45 7.5 cm PaK' refers to something -- but what? Anyone have any cargo lists containing PaK 40's?
Last edited by ColinWright on 27 Feb 2013, 22:27, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How many 7.62 cm PaK 36 were sent to North Africa?

#53

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 27 Feb 2013, 21:21

As to the French 75, I have never seen a photograph of one being used by the Germans or Italians in NA. The Germans were much keener to remove the barrel and make a Pak 38/97 out of it than to waste time sending it "as is" to NA.

And yes I realise that you will all deluge me with German manned 75's in NA now :D :D :D
Alan

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Re: How many 7.62 cm PaK 36 were sent to North Africa?

#54

Post by ColinWright » 27 Feb 2013, 22:34

Alanmccoubrey wrote:As to the French 75, I have never seen a photograph of one being used by the Germans or Italians in NA. The Germans were much keener to remove the barrel and make a Pak 38/97 out of it than to waste time sending it "as is" to NA.

And yes I realise that you will all deluge me with German manned 75's in NA now :D :D :D
The primary consideration that makes me open to the possibility of that the '75 mm PaK' are some form of French 75 is that the guns could have come from Tunisia -- and that the Afrika Korps was obviously doing what it could to beef up its AT defenses at El Alamein.

...getting some HEAT ammunition for the things and extorting a few 75's from the French would make sense under such circumstances.

...however, there's the lack of any references. I'd plump for PaK 40's instead -- but there there is the same problem. A distinct absence of evidence.

...love to know exactly what that '45 7.5 cm PaK' refers to, though. I doubt if the figure is the result of spontaneous generation.

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Re: How many 7.62 cm PaK 36 were sent to North Africa?

#55

Post by Urmel » 27 Feb 2013, 22:39

Well there was at least one French 75. :D

Arrived by air on 4 Dec 41, noted in the war diary of WuG D.A.K. as '1 7,5cm gun (French)'

There were also 3x7,5cm guns on 28 November, but no clarity on designation (could therefore also have been mountain guns for Afrika Art. Abt).

Problem with relying on loading lists is that these guns could be transported by air (no loading list) or as deck cargo on Italian naval vessels (no loading list).

Same war diary records that 11 (! - not 10) Russian field guns 7,62cm were received on 17 Jan 42. This is not a typo, since a few days later it records that two lots of 8 and 3 each were issued to 90. lei. Div.

I have seen no evidence for the Tunisian purchases to include 75s. I have seen only purchases of 20 155 Schneider C howitzers.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: How many 7.62 cm PaK 36 were sent to North Africa?

#56

Post by Dili » 28 Feb 2013, 08:57

Well there was also the 75/27? I also have the 70th Battery with 75/50 S.K. (3 guns - presumably the Czech 75mm AA gun) mentioned in the 132a Reggimento Artiglieria WD.
Correct i forgot about 75/27 and 75/50 but the first is common artillery not usually designed as AT.


45 7.5cm Pak

Why not German PAK? note that the Russians ones have (r) while this one doesn't have the (f)

Concerning the Italian 75/38 aka Pak 38/97 i have that most went to Alpini Divisions in Soviet Union(6 per division) but a small number went to Tunisia.

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Re: How many 7.62 cm PaK 36 were sent to North Africa?

#57

Post by ColinWright » 28 Feb 2013, 10:47

Dili wrote: 45 7.5cm Pak

Why not German PAK? note that the Russians ones have (r) while this one doesn't have the (f)
I certainly don't object to the pieces being PaK 40's -- it makes plenty of sense that PaK 40's would be at El Alamein.

It's just that I can't find any other references to them being at the battle, nor has anyone mentioned them on any loading list, as being received, etc.

If they were there, when did they get there? Who had them?

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Re: How many 7.62 cm PaK 36 were sent to North Africa?

#58

Post by peeved » 28 Feb 2013, 21:59

peeved wrote:According to Waffen und Geheimwaffen des Deutschen Heeres 1933-1945 by Fritz Hahn the number of write-offs on all fronts was 237 for 7,62 cm Pak in 1942 and 217 for 7,62 cm Pak 36 (r) [sic] in '43.
Hmm,
There seems to be a gross miscarriage of numbers in the German figures for 7,62 cm Pak write-offs 1942-44 quoted by Hahn; Including the 480 7,62 cm Pak 36 [in 1944] they amount to 934. Add the 64 7,62 cm Pak 36 lost in '45 up to 1 March and the total figure is a cool thousand.

Since the production of 7,62 cm Pak on wheeled mounting 1942-44 was 560 (358+169+33) [Hahn] the write-off figure exceeds the 7,62 cm Pak production on wheeled mounts by a wide margin. Even the 7,62 cm Pak 36 production for vehicular mounting 1942-43 of 550 guns (423+127) [Hahn] for a total 7,62 cm Pak production of 1110 doesn't explain the discrepancy since 165 were on the rolls of the wheeled 7,62 cm Pak 36 and 39 alone on 1 March '45 [Die deutsche Panzerjägertruppe 1933-1945 by Wolfgang Fleischer & Richard Eiermann] putting the theoretical maximum number of 7,62 cm Pak losses assuming all vehicular guns had been lost before 1 March 1945 at 945. Possibly the 998 figure includes e.g. barrels replaced and rejected in addition to guns written off.

Fleischer et al. OTOH writes that the Heereswaffenamt had given a single order for the conversion of 900 Russian guns into Pak 36 and 39 (129 of those using FK 39 / 297 (r) as basis) and that 19 were built from parts in August 1944 for a total of 919. Subtract 564 from that [according to Fleischer et al. the vehicular gun production was 564, the production of 7,62 cm Pak armed SPs being 545 (201 on Pz. II Ausf. D and 344 on Pz. 38 (t) chassis)] and 7,62 cm Pak production on wheeled mounting would be just 355 which I feel is less likely than 560 for reasons given below. Notable however is that if one subtracts 19 from the known '44 wheeled gun production of 33 one yields 14 or the discrepancy between Fleischer et al.'s 564 number and the known production of vehicular 7,62 cm Paks. Using Fleischer's numbers in amalgamation with known yearly breakdown that production 42-44 might look like: 423+127+14=564 and that of the wheeled guns 336 in '42/'43 and 19 in '44 for a total of 355.

The 1945 figures appear to make the most sense. According to Hahn 395 7,62 cm Pak 36s (number probably also includes the Pak 39, one source of the confusion might be that the expenditure of weapons and ammunition was marked in the same tables and the ammunition for Pak 36 & 39 was marked 7,62 cm Pak 36 on the cartridge casing) were written off up to 1 March '45. Add to that the 165 remaining 7,62 cm Paks and you get exactly 560, which appears to be the most reliable figure for wheeled Pak 36 & 39 production. Subtract the 129 Pak 39s [Fleischer et al.] and you get a production of 431 wheeled Pak 36s. If the '45 loss figures were also reliable there were 165+64=229 Pak 36 & 39 available in the beginning of the year with losses up to that point of 331 guns. Assuming that the 42-44 237/217/480 breakdown is at least percentually correct that loss division would be 25,4%/23,2%/51,4% or 84/77/170 Pak 36 & 39; 161 during the Africa years.

Markus
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Re: How many 7.62 cm PaK 36 were sent to North Africa?

#59

Post by Urmel » 28 Feb 2013, 22:07

This is the only thing I could find regarding Pak40, and TBH I have no idea if this isn't a Pak38

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... cm_Pak.jpg
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: How many 7.62 cm PaK 36 were sent to North Africa?

#60

Post by ColinWright » 01 Mar 2013, 00:36

Urmel wrote:This is the only thing I could find regarding Pak40, and TBH I have no idea if this isn't a Pak38

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... cm_Pak.jpg
One would think PaK 40's would have started popping up in Tunisia. Did they?

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