3 CLY Tank Casualties - Dec 41

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Tom from Cornwall
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3 CLY Tank Casualties - Dec 41

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 17 May 2013 19:45

Hi,

Found the following details which I thought might interest both OOB and tank number experts in WO169/1398 - war diary of 3 CLY for December 1941:

TANK CASUALTIES – 3 SHARPSHOOTERS
Start. 39 Mk VI - 3 Mk IV - 3 M. 3 [Total 45]
23.12.41 Starting from MECHILI area
15733 Mk. VI Broken fan chain when starting.
15690 Mk. VI (5 miles) track off (broken)
16579 Mk. VI (5 miles) broken track.
16561 Mk. VI (8 miles) broken track.
15556 Mk. VI (13 miles) oil and water leak and U.S. compressor.
15724 (14 miles) water leak and U.S. compressor.
15580 (29 miles) fan sprocket and oil leak.
15548 (29 miles) petrol stoppage (pump).
16561 (34 miles) broken suspension arm (front road wheel) and
broken track.
16600 (35 miles) fan sprocket and water leak.
16606 water leak.

The list goes on through to 3 Jan 42, and includes several breakdowns which recur on following days as they are repaired overnight and put back into service.

I'll add more if anyone is interested.

BTW I thought the problem with 16561 was interesting in light of the delay caused by strengthening exactly this part when 22nd Armd Bde arrived in Middle East. Now, if we could find a list of those tanks that were re-worked on arrival... :D

Regards

Tom

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Urmel
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Re: 3 CLY Tank Casualties - Dec 41

Post by Urmel » 18 May 2013 06:09

At this point it is highly unlikely that you can assume safely that T.16561 was one of those with a reworked axle in my view. 22 AB lost almost all its original tanks by 23 November. This one could have come from anywhere.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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ClintHardware
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Re: 3 CLY Tank Casualties - Dec 41

Post by ClintHardware » 18 May 2013 14:09

Really good Tom would like to see more if you can.
Imperialism and Re-Armament NOW !

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Re: 3 CLY Tank Casualties - Dec 41

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 21 May 2013 20:24

Here is the rest of the Appendix of tank casualties - pse note the pencilled disclaimer on the original copy:

24.12.41

15778 (40 miles) two broken suspension arms and oil leak.

15676 (pump) petrol stoppage.

16586 Fan chain and dynamo not charging.

15577 Dynamo not charging.

25.12.41 30 Mk VI - 3 Mk IV - 3 M.3
Left for L.R.S. before march.
15578 Mk VI Compressor
15577 Mk VI Compressor
15693 Mk VI Water pump.
15757 Mk VI Water pump

26.12.41 26 Mk VI - 3 Mk IV - 3 M.3

15619 Mk VI Water leaks

15232 Mk VI Water leaks

16600 Petrol stoppage

27.12.41

15705 Mk VI Compressor
16637 Mk VI Shot through gear box
15597 Mk VI Power traverse
15232 Mk IV Clutch U.S.

- 2 -

28.12.41 - 1100 hrs

16584 Mk VI Compressor
7057 Mk IV Clutch
16634 Mk VI Flat Battery
15597 Mk VI Selectors – hand chain and power traverse
15776 Mk VI Water pump
16600 Mk VI Air bottle and petrol.

These on 28.12.41 are tanks being worked on when we were attacked and 5 of them had to be left (By ES of CHOR ES SUFAN).

29.12.41

15597 Gear box U.S.
15765 Gear box and compressor.
16594 Fan and water.
15615 Fan and oil.

The above had to be abandoned at C 4595 when we were attacked as the fitters were busy on them.

30.12.41

15232 Mk IV )
15617 Mk VI ) Taken to L.R.S. at SAUNNU by O.M.E.
16634 Mk VI )
3 M.3 )
9176 Mk IV Abandoned in withdrawal (clutch and oil)

3.1.42
In Unit At L.R.S.
16561 15580
15613 15233
15556 15617
15803 15574
15620 16623
16593 16579
16620 15733
16585 15658
15664 15704
15578 A.13 15232
15795 M.3 15182
15757 29979

Tanks which started from MECHILI but not now with Regiment or L.R.S.

15733 - 15778 - 15577 - 15619 - 15705 - 16637 - 16584
7057 (A.13) - 16634 - 15597 - 15776 - 16600 15765 -
15615 - 16594 - 9176 (A.13).

[pencilled note: Total 40. Details also don’t tally with rest of list]

(Sgd) J.G. CAUNCE
Lieut and Adjt.
3 Sharpshooters
4 Jan 42.

Regards

Tom

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Re: 3 CLY Tank Casualties - Dec 41

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 21 May 2013 20:27

Andreas,
22 AB lost almost all its original tanks by 23 November.
True, but I think that many were broken down and scattered all over the desert. Many of these were subsequently recovered and so it is surely possible that these Mk VI's were knocked out/broken down tanks of 22 AB that were recovered, repaired and then reissued to 22 AB units.

One thought, though, is whether there was a subsequent delivery of Crusaders after the arrival of 22 AB and prior to this point. Perhaps 2nd Armoured Brigade?

Regards

Tom

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Urmel
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Re: 3 CLY Tank Casualties - Dec 41

Post by Urmel » 21 May 2013 21:03

Bingo - hence 2 Armoured Brigade complaining about being issued clapped out tanks, and having about 1/3rd M3 Honeys on strength, while they left the UK as a Crusader brigade, I believe. While you are right that many of the tanks were recovered, there is no telling where they ended up. See e.g. 2 RGH converting to a Honey Regiment.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: 3 CLY Tank Casualties - Dec 41

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 25 May 2013 20:58

Andreas,

Made sense to me, until I read in the Regt History of 9th Lancers that they were issued with Honeys before leaving UK. I'm not sure why, but I had always thought that all the Honeys were delivered to the Middle East. Obvious follow-up question is does anyone have a list of M3 deliveries to UK and Middle East for 1941-2?

Regards

Tom

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Urmel
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Re: 3 CLY Tank Casualties - Dec 41

Post by Urmel » 27 May 2013 02:28

Hi Tom

I'd like to see documentary evidence for that. :)

All the best

Andreas
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

Tom from Cornwall
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Re: 3 CLY Tank Casualties - Dec 41

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 27 May 2013 19:48

Hi Andreas,

Can't give a "primary" source at the moment - will try to look next time I'm at Kew, in the meantime here are the details from the Regt History (9th Queen's Royal Lancers: 1936 - 1945, Bright, Joan, Gale & Polden, Aldershot, 1951)

p.26
The tank strength of the Regiment at the end of July, therefore, was:
Cruisers:
Mark I C.S. 6
Mark IVA 3
Mark V 3
Mark VI 5
Lights:
Mark VII 17 [subsequently sent to Madagascar as part of a composite sqn]
Mark VIB 11
Total 45

p.27
"on the 5th of August we were told by the new Divisional Commander, Major-General H. Lumsden, that the 2nd Armoured Brigade would be following the 22nd Armoured Brigade aborad in six weeks' time. He did not say where we would be going, but the popular guess was Egypt. The general went on to say that as there were so few Mark VI crusiers we would be equipped with American M3's and, if we were lucky, one squadron of cruisers. The wind was taken out of our sails. Two days earlier we had received from the 4th County of London Yeomanry a collection of ancient Bren carriers and American M3 light tanks. We had thought they were due for the scrap heap and had driven them back to the Pennings and parked them in the bushes..."
p.29
"Between the 15th and 19th of September we handed in our weird collection of fighting vehicles and had left seven Crusaders and seventeen Honeys: the balance of twenty-eight would reach us at our destination..."
"On the 19th of September the twenty-four tanks and nine Daimler scout cars left by rail for Birkenhead..."

Regards

Tom

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Re: 3 CLY Tank Casualties - Dec 41

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 27 May 2013 20:00

Confirmation that 4 CLY had been issued American light tanks is found in there war diary entry for 31 July 1941 [found on line at http://www.warlinks.com:

"Regt inspected by Their Majesties The King and Queen.
Orders received for the Regt to mobilise for service overseas.
Vehicle Strength.
5 Light tanks Mk 6c, 2 Cruisers Mk IVa A13, 9 Cruiser Mk V, 11 Cruiser Mk VI, 6 American Light tanks M2.A4, 4 American Light Cruisers M.3, 10 scout cars, 1 Humberette, 22 Bedford 3-ton, 15 Fordson 15cwt, 11 Fordson 30cwt, 14 BSA M/C, 3 Norton Comb., 1 Water truck, 1 Office truck, 1 W/T, 1 Austin 7, 1 Bedford HB, 1 Morris DC, 7 Utilities, 4 Albion 3-ton 6-wheelers, 1 Leyland breakdown, 8 bicycles."

Vehicle strength recorded at end of June 41 does not include US Light Tanks which suggests an issue in July 41. :)

Regards

Tom

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Re: 3 CLY Tank Casualties - Dec 41

Post by nmao » 29 May 2013 15:08

Hello.

Just to add a little bit of info
Tank deliveries from "Janes - World War Ii Tanks And Fighting Vehicles - The Complete Guide":
light 1941 1942
uk 140 5
m.e. 582 239
(includes 36 m2a4 to uk in 1941, rest m3 and m3a1)
[correction from wikipedia: "There is evidence that indicates those 36 M2A4s were shipped off from North Africa as part of the British Army's 7th Hussars and 2nd Royal Tank Regiment, fighting in the India and Burma campaigns against the Japanese 14th Tank Regiment - Hunnicutt (Stuart) p. 396; Zaloga (M3/M5 Stuart) p. 14]

medium 1941 1942
uk 62 287
m.e. 167 1213
(in 1941 they're all m3 grant)

regards,

-nuno

PS:in an article in Military Modelling by Peter Brown there is further info about the tank strength of 2nd and 22nd arm brig while in the UK. can post if needed.

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