3rd Armourd Brigade Destroyed in the Desert

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Urmel
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Re: 3rd Armourd Brigade Destroyed in the Desert

Post by Urmel » 13 Dec 2019 22:03

What on earth do people's politics have to do with document preservation. Simply stop.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

MarkN
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Re: 3rd Armourd Brigade Destroyed in the Desert

Post by MarkN » 13 Dec 2019 23:17

Urmel wrote:
13 Dec 2019 22:03
What on earth do people's politics have to do with document preservation. Simply stop.
I'm currently on a short visit to the UK. Haven't been for a while and it syruck me as soon as l arrived last weekend that a large chunk of the population seems to be living in 5he twilight zone.

Poster clinthardware mentionned Canterbury. Coincidentally, l was there on Tuesday. Walking down the main street l was jumped upon by a couple of young things sporting red rosettes. Could they count on my vote? Would l like to see a better NHS? Would l like free broadband? Yadda yadda yadda. Suddenly another passer by jumps into the conversation and loudly announces that he was a retired NUPE and Unison shop steward who had voted like his father and grandfather for Labour all his life but would never vote for "the fascist traitor standing here" [Canterbury]. Really? A life long union man calling a Labour MP a facist traitor. Yes. Apparently, she [the Labour MP] is a remainer.... And remainer = fascist traitor ?????

That same evening, over a pint in my mates local, an elderly couple were bickering as to whether they would or would not break their allegience to the Tories because brexit could make getting to their second home in the south of France more difficult.

On Wednesday night, down Wiltshire way, l was taken out by another mate for a cheap pint in his local working mans club. Overheard the following at some point or other. Won't vote Labour because Corbyn is an IRA terrorist. Won't vote Labour because they want a 2nd referendum and that's undemocratic. Can't vote Liberal because they want to remain and will block sending all the immigrants home.

It's twilight zone.

I really looking forward to this trip being over and escaping the madness.

PS. It was nice and quiet at the TNA yesterday. Some of the files l drew were in a jolly good state. Some, however, were quite shocking. Like you, the problem is clearly a lack of funding and nothing to do with the political leanings of the staff.

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Urmel
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Re: 3rd Armourd Brigade Destroyed in the Desert

Post by Urmel » 14 Dec 2019 15:19

Yeah well election's over. This was a bad one.

The files are in differential states based on their popularity I guess. Preservation, especially digital, is urgently needed. But... money...
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: 3rd Armourd Brigade Destroyed in the Desert

Post by ClintHardware » 18 Dec 2019 17:17

If Kew would give me bed and breakfast I would do the photographing etc for them.

Mark the Poster: you're impressions ring very true. The city's populace could not overwhelm the universities and colleges.

In WO 169/952 there is a document dated 1/9/41 titled R.A.C. M.E. Organisation setting out projected and existing OOBs. In the lower half it lists 2nd Armoured Division commanding 3rd Armoured Brigade and 1st Armoured Brigade.

The file contains about six references during 1941 to the expected presence and re-equipment of 2nd Armoured Division six months after Mechili. And the existence of 3rd Armoured Brigade is later than the July 41 declaration that it no longer existed. The descriptions of destroyed, shamed, disgraced etc in respect of these formations are completely unreliable, unmeasurable and fallacious.
Imperialism and Re-Armament NOW !

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Attrition
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Re: 3rd Armourd Brigade Destroyed in the Desert

Post by Attrition » 18 Dec 2019 17:52

I thought that much of the division that stayed in Africa was dispersed to other units in 1941 along with the survivors of the Balkan debacle. Mind you, that's perhaps that's because I've been reading your posts....

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Urmel
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Re: 3rd Armourd Brigade Destroyed in the Desert

Post by Urmel » 18 Dec 2019 23:21

ClintHardware wrote:
18 Dec 2019 17:17

The file contains about six references during 1941 to the expected presence and re-equipment of 2nd Armoured Division six months after Mechili. And the existence of 3rd Armoured Brigade is later than the July 41 declaration that it no longer existed. The descriptions of destroyed, shamed, disgraced etc in respect of these formations are completely unreliable, unmeasurable and fallacious.
Please.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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ClintHardware
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Re: 3rd Armourd Brigade Destroyed in the Desert

Post by ClintHardware » 02 Apr 2020 16:36

The note Urmel referred to exists in the file WO 169/952 A.F.V. G.H.Q. M.E.F. as Appendix 17 and dated 18th July 1941. It states that “3rd Armd Bde no longer exists. All personnel in EGYPT have been dispersed to 1 Armd Bde or other units”. That note, however, referred to personnel in Egypt but the personnel in Tobruk continued to refer to themselves as 3rd Armoured Brigade until they came under 32nd Army Tank Brigade command on the 18th September 1941 a day or so after that Brigade H.Q. arrived in Tobruk.

Also 1st RTR are listed in Joslen as under 3rd Armd Bde until 18th September which underlines the effect of one armoured brigade in two locations after evacuation of their unnecessary personnel from Tobruk in April and yet still defeating each panzer led attack across the perimeter.
Imperialism and Re-Armament NOW !

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