Urmel wrote:
The data is right there for the traditional historical interpretation.
You need to breakout of tradition and revisit the data and the outcomes.
Urmel wrote:
- The destruction of 2 Armoured Division as a fighting force during the first offensive.
3rd Armd is still fighting and 2/3rds of the brigade are being re-equipped.
2nd Support Group is in Tobruk and fighting on the border with Brigadier Gott
2nd Armd Div HQ is in Egypt to either be made redundant or refitted. It was made redundant and its men re-assigned.
That is not destruction and neither is Pz5 losing the ability to use its 90 unaccounted for panzers.
Urmel wrote:
- The failure to hold on to the border during BREVITY.
Holding the border would have been good but being closer to the source of your supplies was OK too. The border could wait and it did.
Urmel wrote:
- The failure to take the border during BATTLEAXE
Yes that seems to be victory to Rommel but did he make it last and get to Suez?
Urmel wrote:
- The failure to win the armoured battle during CRUSADER and the 2nd offensive, not once, not twice, but THREE times.
Yes I do not regard CRUSADER as a victory.
Urmel wrote:
- The total failure in the Gazala line battles
Gazala was difficult but Afrikakorps without reinforcements had shot its bolt and remained weak during June 42 - May 43.
Urmel wrote:
Nobody was being pulverised by artillery, by the way, until El Alamein (with the exception of the Commonwealth forces on Ed Duda).
Commander Royal Artillery 9th Div was British Brigadier Thompson. His fire plan stopped the 11th and 14th April and 30th April - 2nd May attacks on Tobruk by causing so many loses. The Australian infantry eliminated those they could but they did not stop 5. leichte Division without the four British field regiments present that worked very closely with the infantry. The OPs were with the infantry.
Here is an element of the 11th April battle where the artillery did enough execution with a sufficiency of force. It was far worse for Afrikakorps on the 14th.
11th April
Oberstleutnant Friedrich Olbrich, Panzer Regiment 5
[The regiment] reached a position 12 kilometres south-west of Tobruk at about 1500 hours. The element of surprise was lost because the assembly area immediately came under enemy fire. (WO 169/1436) (WO 201/353)
Oberstleutnant Friedrich Olbrich, Panzer Regiment 5
At 1600 hours, the Regimentsstab and II. Abteilung began the attack. The regiment had been reduced to 25 [operational] panzers. On reaching high ground in view of the enemy, the panzers came under heavy artillery fire. (WO 169/1436) (WO 201/353)
The men of the 20th Brigade would have heard the shells of the 4th R.H.A. in the morning (with 2nd Support Group now under Gott
outside the perimeter) and now saw those of the 1st and 107th pounding the enemy concentrations as the battle developed towards their positions. On reaching high ground, which could be observed directly by the British and Australian gunners, a heavier weight of artillery fire was landing amongst the panzers as they began to approach the anti-tank ditch. The panzers were approaching the 2/17th Battalion.
Lieutenant Ivor Birkin, ‘D’ Troop, 426 Battery
107th Regiment (South Nottinghamshire Hussars) Royal Horse Artillery
“There was an escarpment and these tanks came over the ridge probably about 6,000 yards away. We were firing at between five and six thousand yards which rather shook us as on exercise we had been used to firing at eight, nines and tens. They didn’t attack in great strength probably about fourteen or fifteen tanks altogether. I was responsible for relaying the instructions to the guns, shouting out all the different angles using the megaphone.”
Despite the blast and fragments of the 25-Pdr shells, the German attack kept rolling towards the perimeter and shortening the range.
‘B/O’ Battery 1st Royal Horse Artillery
1700 hrs. Infantry debussed 3000 yds from the wire and advanced in line towards R31 and R33. (WO 169/1436)
The attack was heading towards the 2/17th’s positions near R.33 from a mile to the south. Captain J. Goschen of the 1st R.H.A. got his guns onto them with 25 Rounds Gunfire, which temporarily halted their advance. However a group of panzers separated from the schützen and were seen coming through the barrage and heading towards the perimeter in front of Captain J. W. Balfe’s 10 Company.
Oberleutnant Kuhn had watched the schützen go to ground and dig in after being halted by fire. The few panzers of II. Abteilung passed through them aware that they were under observation and coming under shell fire. Kuhn saw the shells landing as neat detonating lines. (57)
1st Royal Northumberland Fusiliers
1700 hrs. Attack threatens on front 2/17 Bn. AFVs and considerable numbers inf.
Axis losses from artillery fire stopped them. At no time were Stukas or Axis artillery able to knockout any of the British batteries.