7th Armoured Division Intelligence Summary. Armour Pen Data

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ClintHardware
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7th Armoured Division Intelligence Summary. Armour Pen Data

#1

Post by ClintHardware » 18 Sep 2013, 20:28

Hi Yall

I found this item dated 17th April 1941 with the 7th Armd Div War Diary. It is interesting in terms of what is known and what is not. 7th Armd Div's Armoured Brigades were in Egypt so this was data from 2nd Armd Div experiences. It obviously pre-dates the Panther, Tiger and King Tiger but refers to German Mk V, VI and VII in terms of armour. Any ideas on what it is referring to? Up armoured Panzer IVs? But they were not present either.

Sections 4 and 5 area quoted below complete. There was no more text within Section 5 than you see written below, and Section 5 identifies the Panzer III as a Light Medium and the Panzer IV as a Medium - so what was being referred to in section 4??

Thoughts please.

Quote begins:


4. Penetration – 2 Pdr A/Tk & Tk guns.

All German tank front armour, up to and excluding the type Mk V Heavy, is penetrated by the 2 pdr gun at ranges varying from 1000 yds to 200 yds, according to armour thickness. Side armour in all cases is penetrated at correspondingly longer ranges.

Frontal attack on the German Mks V, VI and VII Heavies is useless, except against the Mk V at under 300 yds normal impact.

Penetration against side armour at 30o impact is effected at the following ranges (and correspondingly longer ranges as the impact angle decreases):-

Mk V.......850 yds assuming side armour thickness of 30mm
Mk VI......700 yds.......”..........”..........”........”. 40mm.
Mk VII.....500 yds.......”..........”..........”........”. 45mm.

The above armour is Homogeneous. If, as is suspected, the armour is cemented or face-hardened, the range should be reduced by 100 yds.

If frontal attack is essential, the turret-ring, gun mounting and visors should be aimed at, and even with the thickest armour turrets can be jammed by a shot on the ring. Tracks are good targets, but they allow for such a small margin of aiming error, that if large numbers of rounds are to be got off in a very short time, a miss is more than a shot wasted.

Note. Normal impact means that the line of approach of the shell is at right angles to the plate struck. Angles of impact are measured away from the normal.

5. AFV types identified in Libya.

Particulars as at present available identify the following types of AFV.

Tanks. Pz/Kw II Maybach type. Light 9 tons.
........Pz/Kw III Light Medium. 18 tons. Six independent wheels.
........Pz/Kw IV. Type A. Medium. 20 tons.
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Re: 7th Armoured Division Intelligence Summary. Armour Pen D

#2

Post by StefanSiverud » 19 Sep 2013, 00:24

Doing the maths to find out the actual armour thickness, these are the approximate results:

Code: Select all

Mk V      26 mm     (30 mm at 30 degrees)
Mk VI     34,5 mm   (40 mm at 30 degrees)
Mk VII    39 mm     (45 mm at 30 degrees)
I had the idea it might have been referring to the Neubaufahrzeuge (V and VI), but the side armour of those are not nearly thick enough. How about the A7V for the heavy 'VII'? :lol:

Are you sure it's dated right? Your guess that it might be up-armoured Panzer IV's is as good as you'd get from me. Two other guesses: An intelligence blunder, or the opposite; an indication early German design specifications had reached the allies?


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Re: 7th Armoured Division Intelligence Summary. Armour Pen D

#3

Post by ClintHardware » 19 Sep 2013, 00:44

Hi Stefan

This is definitely 17th April 1941 and it is an appreciation of panzers encountered in Libya. The reference to Mks V - VII appear to be a British explanation or way of distinguishing between up-armoured versions of the of Panzer IV or possibly the Panzer III. The 4th and 7th Armoured Brigades were in Egypt re-equipping and would go back into battle on the 15th May for Operation Brevity. This data would have come from 3rd Armd Bde and/or 2nd Armd Div. It is strange that Section 5 makes no further reference to Mks V - VII.

The Panzer III had Hull Side Armour of 30mm and the Panzer IV had 20mm + 20mm in the same position. The penetration figures are assumptions of performance rather than statements of hull side armour thickness of specific panzers.
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Re: 7th Armoured Division Intelligence Summary. Armour Pen D

#4

Post by ClintHardware » 19 Sep 2013, 08:17

Having thought further about this in respect of the date of 17th April 41 - this is three days after the panzer losses inside the Tobruk perimeter on the 14th April and six days after those of the 11th April. Oberst Ponath's diary (MG8) was taken from his dead body on or about the 14th so it follows that close examination of German equipment and corpses that could be reached was being undertaken.

If I am right the 7th Armoured Division Intelligence Summary indicates that five versions of the Panzer III and IV (the basic unmodified versions and three up-armoured versions temporarily designated Mk. V - VII) in total were examined and briefly recorded within Tobruk and their information despatched to Egypt.

It also indicates how little was known of German AFVs from the fighting in France 1940 and how little was yet known of the Heer from ULTRA and the 'Y' Service.
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Re: 7th Armoured Division Intelligence Summary. Armour Pen D

#5

Post by Urmel » 19 Sep 2013, 10:48

Bizarre.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

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Re: 7th Armoured Division Intelligence Summary. Armour Pen D

#6

Post by nmao » 19 Sep 2013, 12:25

Hello.
Just my educated guess... they call Mks V, VI and VII Heavies, so they cannot be a type of Pz III or IV.
Further on they don't list them as part of "AFV types identified in Libya", so they probably are the Neubaufahrzeug (V and VI) used in Norway.
The Mk VII is probably just another mistake...

just my two cents

-nuno

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Re: 7th Armoured Division Intelligence Summary. Armour Pen D

#7

Post by ClintHardware » 19 Sep 2013, 17:59

Yes I think you and Stefan might be right. Neither the 4th or 7th Armoured Brigades had yet encountered panzers in Libya so perhaps they assumed the Neubaufahrzeug were amongst them based on descriptions received, and then Section 5 lists those actually encountered.

As Urmel said it is "Bizarre".
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Re: 7th Armoured Division Intelligence Summary. Armour Pen D

#8

Post by StefanSiverud » 19 Sep 2013, 21:48

EDIT: As nmao said, from the text you have provided here:
5. AFV types identified in Libya.

Particulars as at present available identify the following types of AFV.

Tanks. Pz/Kw II Maybach type. Light 9 tons.
........Pz/Kw III Light Medium. 18 tons. Six independent wheels.
........Pz/Kw IV. Type A. Medium. 20 tons.
It looks as though the Mks V-VII haven't been encountered in Libya yet, but it is considered possible they may be in the future seeing as they put them in the report. Unless it says so elsewhere in the text.

The question is if it was believed the Neubaufahrzeug really had side armour that thick, and if the allies really didn't know just how limited production was by then. I don't believe so. And this still does not explain the Mk VII. As I said, I do not believe it could be explained by the Neubaufahrzeuge.

Perhaps this thread would have better luck in the Panzer section?

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Re: 7th Armoured Division Intelligence Summary. Armour Pen Data

#9

Post by MarkN » 04 Jan 2018, 18:51

ClintHardware wrote: I found this item dated 17th April 1941 with the 7th Armd Div War Diary. It is interesting in terms of what is known and what is not. 7th Armd Div's Armoured Brigades were in Egypt so this was data from 2nd Armd Div experiences. It obviously pre-dates the Panther, Tiger and King Tiger but refers to German Mk V, VI and VII in terms of armour. Any ideas on what it is referring to? Up armoured Panzer IVs? But they were not present either.
Are you sure these are the results of "experiences" in North Africa?

The first 'tests' carried out against German pantsers in North Africa were conducted using Solthurn and Bofors against armour 1 & 3/8" thick armour. Results were disseminated and appeared in IntSumms late April.

Later, further tests were conducted/supervised LtCol Drew in Tobruk by firing the 2-pdr of an A13 against a Pz.IV captured after the 14 April attack. I cannot recall off the top of my head on what day these tests were carried out, but the results of that testing were disseminated and appeared in IntSumms in early June.

Both uparmoured Pz.III and Pz.IV were captured during the 14 April attack.

I would suggest that any IntSumm dated 17 April 1941 refers to information sourced from the UK. Thus any discussion or speculation about what are Mk. V, VI and VII in Libya is wasted, pointless effort.
ClintHardware wrote:This is definitely 17th April 1941 and it is an appreciation of panzers encountered in Libya.
No it is not. As noted in point 5, the pantsers noted in theatre were:
ClintHardware wrote: 5. AFV types identified in Libya.

Particulars as at present available identify the following types of AFV.

Tanks. Pz/Kw II Maybach type. Light 9 tons.
........Pz/Kw III Light Medium. 18 tons. Six independent wheels.
........Pz/Kw IV. Type A. Medium. 20 tons.
ClintHardware wrote:The reference to Mks V - VII appear to be a British explanation or way of distinguishing between up-armoured versions of the of Panzer IV or possibly the Panzer III. The 4th and 7th Armoured Brigades were in Egypt re-equipping and would go back into battle on the 15th May for Operation Brevity. This data would have come from 3rd Armd Bde and/or 2nd Armd Div.
A rather unsound and inaccurate analysis leading to...
ClintHardware wrote:Having thought further about this in respect of the date of 17th April 41 - this is three days after the panzer losses inside the Tobruk perimeter on the 14th April and six days after those of the 11th April. Oberst Ponath's diary (MG8) was taken from his dead body on or about the 14th so it follows that close examination of German equipment and corpses that could be reached was being undertaken.

If I am right the 7th Armoured Division Intelligence Summary indicates that five versions of the Panzer III and IV (the basic unmodified versions and three up-armoured versions temporarily designated Mk. V - VII) in total were examined and briefly recorded within Tobruk and their information despatched to Egypt.
... just plain daft, and ...
ClintHardware wrote:It is strange that Section 5 makes no further reference to Mks V - VII.
No it is not strange. It is another one of your bizarre misunderstandings.

Mk.V, VI and VII are not listed in section 5 because they have not been identified in Libya. An obvious point that should immediatly provide the reader with the knowledge needed to ascertain the information in section 4 was not derived from North African experience.

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Re: 7th Armoured Division Intelligence Summary. Armour Pen Data

#10

Post by ClintHardware » 06 Jan 2018, 00:18

So lets get this straight. You went and found a 2013 topic in order to attack me. LOL

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