Leutnant Schorm's diary

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ClintHardware
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Re: Leutnant Schorm's diary

#16

Post by ClintHardware » 17 Aug 2015, 07:21

Thanks I will check/place those details in with what I have.

Can you please identify where you found those pages - this is important.
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Brevity
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Re: Leutnant Schorm's diary

#17

Post by Brevity » 07 Sep 2015, 17:44

Thanks to user UHF51 from panzerarchiv forum, the ultimate fate of Leutnant Schorm can be finally figured out
Joachim Schorm
born - 6 March 1911
highest rank - Hauptmann d. R (des Reserve ?)
last promotion - 1 August 1943
While serving in Panzer-Abteilung FHH on the eastern front, he went missing in July 1944 during a catastrophe of Army Group Center !

source: http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/viewtopic.php?t=10982

Well, so much for a hope he made it through the war alive, it seems... He seemed to be such a cool guy, totally unlike the stereotypical nazi, and a great commander as well !


If we wanted to find out whether Schorm ever returned home, what do we do?


Brevity
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Re: Leutnant Schorm's diary

#18

Post by Brevity » 17 Sep 2015, 05:59

Some photos of Schorm's tank just popped on ebay

March 1941, no camouflage yet
Image

after repaining
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stuck in the desert (the flag means the technical breakdown)
Image

maybe 621 too
Image

There is some photos with soldiers, too bad we don't know how to recognize Schorm yet
Image

Also new shot of 625, which Schorm was using in Tobruk on 14 April
Image

The photos belong to collection of soldier, who seemingly served in Pz Regt 5 since at least 1940 to at least August 1942. He must have been Schorm's crewman for some time because most photos show one particular tank. In 1942 he still served in 6. company (photo below). Later he ended up in prisoner camp in Texas
Image

Photos expire in 8 days, save them while you can :P
http://www.ebay.de/sch/m.html?_odkw=&_s ... +&_sacat=0

Enjoy

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David W
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Re: Leutnant Schorm's diary

#19

Post by David W » 17 Sep 2015, 07:44

Nice, thanks for posting.

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ClintHardware
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Re: Leutnant Schorm's diary

#20

Post by ClintHardware » 17 Sep 2015, 10:46

Fascinating thanks.

Copyright works strangely with images. The copyright rests (or used to) with the estate of the photographer or to whoever the copyrights were specifically sold to or bequeathed by. Acquiring the image does not also mean acquiring the copyright of the image and those images may be copies given out by the photographer and you might have to prove you have a right to use them if you tried to use them in a publication or on the internet. It works differently in various countries and I may be out of date with what I have stated above. Its a minefield laid by them lawyers to pay for private school fees and their third and fourth houses and classic car collections. Lets Nationalise the Lawyers Mr Corbyn.
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MarkN
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Re: Leutnant Schorm's diary

#21

Post by MarkN » 20 Aug 2018, 17:32

ClintHardware wrote:
15 Aug 2015, 18:39
I am quite happy with the MGB 2 evidence given above except for their unexplained completeness on the 30th April.

CAB 146/10 paints another view of the units fielded on the 31st March:
Part I Axis Operations in North Africa, Feb 1941 - Feb 1942
5 Light Division was deployed in two columns - consisting of Panzer Regiment 5 with M.G. Battalion 8, Reconnaissance Unit 3, anti-tank elements and artillery support to attack along both sides of the Via Balbia. A subsidiary column consisting of an anti-tank battalion and M.G. Battalion 2 would encircle the position to the south and thus facilitate the progress of the main column. (Fz.I(i) p.59) (Feldzug in Nordafrika)(From CAB 146/10, page 20, Section 28)

As Schorm was part of the forming up I would expect his understanding to be correct. The quote above places both MGBs in the line up. Could Schorm have got his MGBs wrong? I don't know but I think it unlikely.
MarkN wrote:
15 Aug 2015, 20:07
Do you have any other references to MG8's participation other than "Feldzug"?

If not, it would do you well to reread the FORWARD to Part 1 in CAB146/10 regarding the editors impression of Feldzug.

Given it was Feldzug that initiated your poor analysis of 2nd April too, it may prove of benefit if you reviewed all of your analysis that relies on Feldzug for substantiate your "doubts"...
ClintHardware wrote:
16 Aug 2015, 09:18
I agree with your thoughts on Feldzug.

My analysis was based on a lack of information about MGB 2 and MGB 8 but Schorm has sorted that but Feldzug has slightly muddied it. And don't forget that none of us were confident or certain about which or both bataillone were actually involved.

I am pleased we have a statement of considerable losses from Schorm because until that point those who contributed were trying to state something along the lines of no infantry losses. Thank you Schorm and thank you MarkN. Can you tell us where your Schorm contributions came from or not?
Having now got my hands on a copy of the (in)famous Feldzug, I've had a wee look to compare the CAB146/10 write-up with the Feldzug which is uses so much.

It remains quite faithfull to the original German text in respect of Pz.Regt.5 and MGBtl.8 forming the advance column. However, one interesting element popped out that is directly relevant to the timeframe and the discussion held above: Feldzug was written without access the appropriate DAK KTB for the period. A document that is now available to us. However, they did have access to the 5.lei-Div KTB which clearly identifies MGBtl.2 being the interested party.

The Feldzug write-up for the Mersa Brega skirmish is threadbare and quite underwhelming.

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Xavier
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Re: Leutnant Schorm's diary

#22

Post by Xavier » 21 Aug 2018, 01:24

march 28 he mentions an "SS man serving 60 days arrest" I tought no SS were ever sent to north africa...

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Re: Leutnant Schorm's diary

#23

Post by Urmel » 21 Aug 2018, 08:47

MarkN wrote:
20 Aug 2018, 17:32
The Feldzug write-up for the Mersa Brega skirmish is threadbare and quite underwhelming.
That could of course be because they thought it was a piffling little action that didn't deserve more treatment. :milwink:
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: Leutnant Schorm's diary

#24

Post by jpwaller » 04 May 2023, 05:16

MarkN wrote:
22 May 2015, 13:42
Brevity wrote:Hello, here is incomplete diary of Leutnant Joachim Schorm. It runs from 26 February to 14 May 1941. Does anyone have an early April part? I can't find it anywhere and would be really glad if someone could post it!
Hi Brevity,

Bit late, but on just found this thread.

I see the missing entries have not yet been posted. Here you are...
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Hi Mark
If possible could you please repost these as they've been deleted?
best regards
John
Best regards
John W.

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ClintHardware
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Re: Leutnant Schorm's diary

#25

Post by ClintHardware » 17 May 2023, 07:58

Urmel wrote:
21 Aug 2018, 08:47
MarkN wrote:
20 Aug 2018, 17:32
The Feldzug write-up for the Mersa Brega skirmish is threadbare and quite underwhelming.
That could of course be because they thought it was a piffling little action that didn't deserve more treatment. :milwink:
42 pages A4 were required to cover Mersa Brega 31st March 41 because of the amount of information and maps that came to hand.
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Urmel
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Re: Leutnant Schorm's diary

#26

Post by Urmel » 17 May 2023, 08:13

ClintHardware wrote:
17 May 2023, 07:58
Urmel wrote:
21 Aug 2018, 08:47
MarkN wrote:
20 Aug 2018, 17:32
The Feldzug write-up for the Mersa Brega skirmish is threadbare and quite underwhelming.
That could of course be because they thought it was a piffling little action that didn't deserve more treatment. :milwink:
42 pages A4 were required to cover Mersa Brega 31st March 41 because of the amount of information and maps that came to hand.
So what? Just because you think it is an amazing fight doesn't mean the Germans considered it more than a speed bump.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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ClintHardware
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Re: Leutnant Schorm's diary

#27

Post by ClintHardware » 17 May 2023, 08:23

Urmel wrote:
17 May 2023, 08:13

So what? Just because you think it is an amazing fight doesn't mean the Germans considered it more than a speed bump.
So What? What an interesting reaction.

Within the detail of the battle there is a lot of information about how units fought with the equipment, weapons and ammunition they had and the tactics they used. If these elements are not of interest for you I am surprised.
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Re: Leutnant Schorm's diary

#28

Post by Urmel » 17 May 2023, 10:55

I'm not saying they aren't of interest to me. I am saying that in the larger scheme of things Mersa el Brega wasn't meaningful or noteworthy and that is why it hasn't been given more detailed treatment in the histories, from day 1 onwards. Two different questions.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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ClintHardware
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Re: Leutnant Schorm's diary

#29

Post by ClintHardware » 17 May 2023, 12:13

The losses and damage received at Mersa Brega were just the first 5. leichte experienced on the way to the Tobruk perimeter.

There was no contact with any German troops on the 1st April except a visual contact. Two days lost in advancing 5. leichte Division in good order towards Tobruk is significant and contributed to what happened to each attack on and within the perimeter.

That 2nd Support Group was able to leave Mersa Brega in good order and with their heavy weapons to new positions for the fighting expected on the 1st April says a lot about the effect of the limited available defence on the 31st March.

Some of the detail of the fighting has been covered in other topics so it is not worth repeating here.
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Re: Leutnant Schorm's diary

#30

Post by Urmel » 17 May 2023, 12:55

There's a lot of what I will politely call 'inference' here, and I have no intent to get into it.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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