RASC on the run March - April 1941

[David W]

Urmel.
No I don't have any dates regarding the 129th I'm afraid.
But I do have the 41st returning in May 41.

[Tom from Cornwall]

Now I'm even more confused, as it seems that the Rangers became 9/KRRC while Tower Hamlet Rifles became 9/Rifle Brigade.

Tom

[Gary Kennedy]

The Rifles Museum has a chronology via PDF available here -

http://riflesmuseum.co.uk/wp-content/up ... 2_Edn2.pdf

That shows 9 and 10 KRRC as being created from the Rangers, and 9 and 10 RB as being created from 1 and 2 Tower Hamlets Rifles respectively. Also shown in a brief history of the lineage of London units -

http://www.steppingforwardlondon.org/as ... ions/5.pdf

Gary

[MarkN]

Re 15th LAA. My understanding is that it went to N.A in January 1941 with 4x 12 gun Batteries. The 41st, which was sent to Sudan. The 129th, which was sent to Crete (and lost). Leaving the 42nd and 152nd. 24 guns.

Can anyone prove or disprove this understanding?

Thanks.

A mere 2 minutes of googling and I came up with pretty reliable info that 15 LAA Regt left UK on 19 Nov 40 with THREE batteries each with 12 guns: 41, 42 and 129. Info from Manx Aviation Preservation Society (custodians of the 15 LAA Regiment history).

A further 60 seconds of googling gave me 152 bty coming under command on 11 Nov 41 and leaving again on 9 Jan 1942. Info from 15 LAA WD.

Same documents also show 129 bty, although technically in suspended animation due losses on Crete, lived on in name as a troop in 42 bty.

And finally, for the serious, this popped up...


It took me longer to type and post this info than it did to find....

PS. added much later...
152 bty was a heavy not a light battery and 'belonged' to 51st HAA Regt.

[Urmel]

The Rifles Museum has a chronology via PDF available here -

http://riflesmuseum.co.uk/wp-content/up ... 2_Edn2.pdf

That shows 9 and 10 KRRC as being created from the Rangers, and 9 and 10 RB as being created from 1 and 2 Tower Hamlets Rifles respectively. Also shown in a brief history of the lineage of London units -

http://www.steppingforwardlondon.org/as ... ions/5.pdf

Gary

You are absolutely right Gary. Shows the dangers of posting from memory for me!

[David W]

Thanks Mark.

That 152 bty was a heavy was not known to me, and is very interesting.

Do you own the "Ack Ack" Book, or did you just post a photo of the cover. I'm going to look for a copy.

Took me a long time to type the above, as my wife asked me to do the drying up half way through.

[Gary Kennedy]

The Rifles Museum has a chronology via PDF available here -

http://riflesmuseum.co.uk/wp-content/up ... 2_Edn2.pdf

That shows 9 and 10 KRRC as being created from the Rangers, and 9 and 10 RB as being created from 1 and 2 Tower Hamlets Rifles respectively. Also shown in a brief history of the lineage of London units -

http://www.steppingforwardlondon.org/as ... ions/5.pdf

Gary

You are absolutely right Gary. Shows the dangers of posting from memory for me!

No worries, I just reckoned if the Rifles themselves have lost track of who was what and when, we've no chance!

Gary

[Gooner1]

Zip forward to March/April 1941, and the 2nd Support Group forces at Mersa el Brega were the product of NEAME, GAMBIER-PARRY and LATHAM's decisions and preparations. Remember, apart from the medium artillery, there were enough units undercommand to produce an identical organisation to the one you describe or even more capable. Those 3 commanders chose to place their forces elsewhere. For example, GAMBIER-PARRY had four 25-pdr batteries, each of eight guns (ie 8 more guns than you depict); two anti-tank batteries (the same); and detachments of engineers and machine-gunners (the same). NEAME had enough infantry to make up the deficeit in infantry.

Where is the infantry to come from? Bear in mind its about 400 road miles from Mersa Brega to Tobruk so how are you going to support a much expanded force at Mersa Brega, when the absolute priority is moving stuff to Greece?

[ClintHardware]

MarK
Your comments concerning my data on (page 4) were not correct. Your emboldened text is you screaming yay verily LOL.

The data is in the war diaries and also Joslen - so get your head out of the Cabinet and stop worrying about criticising the officers with your edited political information (note the word information here instead of data)- the best we can do is report with what they left us from the Field. Why do you need to fit partially known events to your post war developed theories? We have had 75 years of edited defective politically manipulated and tainted material and you seem to love that stuff.

This is way off the RASC element of this topic but.... here is something to ponder: In WO 169/1414 Lt.-Col Drew notes in his Note VII (or maybe VIII) that 11 German Armoured cars were knocked out at Derna 7th April - CYRCOM states 15, J Bty claimed 8. 5th RTR War Diary entry claimed 13 then someone crossed out the 3 (but when? and who?). Germans made no statement apparently of their losses and thus many assume there were none. James Mason's script mentioned nothing either - how shocking. OMG...did James Mason's script writer cross out that 3 on behalf of the film producers so money could be saved? Oh how awful....

This is why reporting using Field data is illuminating even if it cannot give a definite one history account (Mr Brevity).

And in that fighting on the 7th April there were at least two (noted by Drew) of the THR's maximum possible 44 Carriers present on the 30th March of which someone here stated the Germans claimed they had taken 50 about the 31st March - 2nd April (IIRC). And 1st THR damaged Gruppe Ponath on the 7th especially with anti-tank rifles led by an RSM..."But its not in the accepted script James".

Back to the RASC point of this topic - Has anyone got Field data of RASC collapse/panic February- April 1941 instead of rescuing others and keeping everyone able to move back and then hammer the attacks on Tobruk? .... Jus sayin....yo

[MarkN]

An old thread on an old subject. But, ...

As I said, KTB D.A.K., which you have, states that 'unuebersehbare Beute an Fahrzeugen, Waffen und Munition, und Verpflegung' was made. 'Immense/incalculable/inestimable booty of vehicles, weapons and ammunition, and rations'. If you have something in the Kew documents contradicting this claim, by all means show it.

It is a claim but not backed up by British documents. I very much doubt the German statement because the Australians would have needed the weapons and everyone needed the vehicles - so why would they be stored?

My bold and underline highlighting the relevant sentence in a previous post.

And the whole of the signal probably from Major-General Lavarack (commanding CYRCOM inside Tobruk) via his BGS to General Wavell and the other H.Q.s. is below from WO 169/1240 (sorry about the layout):

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To MIDEAST rptd Stalex for C-in-C Med. BTE RAF Cyrcom SNOIS
BARDIA-SOLLUM Sub Area MATRUH Sub Area

From :- CYRCOM 0.237 10
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SITREP (.) Estimated 700 MT advanced along rd GAZALA – TOBRUK during day (.) This coln was attacked low flying (.) Fwd elements enemy made contact with Western face TOBRUK perimeter this morning (.) 7 – 12 AFVs and 22 MT carrying inf were reported and fire fight ensued (.) Enemy two Armd Cars and 7 MT destroyed (.) Own [losses] two guns two carriers destroyed by MG and mortar fire (.) 70 enemy MT probably supply lorries located GADD EL AHMAR bombed and MGd (.) RAF estimate 75 MT destroyed today (.) Tac/R 1615 hrs reports 2000 MT MECHILI of which large proportion probably own captured MT (.) Two air raids TOBRUK today (.) Casualties so far reported 11 killed some wounded (.) Two hospitals dive-bombed (.) Homecoming fighters report 2015 hrs 3 enemy colns each 200 MT moving East on track GADD EL AHMAR – EL ADEM head [of columns] 7 miles West EL ADEM (.) Pending confirmation believe this same coln 700 MT mentioned above diverted South via ACROMA (.) Party consisting of M Bty 3 RHA 3 Aust A.Tk Regt less two btys and elements 3 Ind Motor Bde arrived today having fought way back from MECHILI under leadership Major EDEN M Bty bringing 4 German and about 100 Italian P.W. with them.
......................................................Originators Instrs..............................T.O.O.
(sd) R T Priest, Major for BGS..................IMMEDIATE......................................2330
.......................................................IN CIPHER
(WO 169/1240)
viewtopic.php?p=1976359#p1976359

[Tom Gale]

Looks interesting but how is it relevant?